PDA

View Full Version : What's the going rate for LAN wiring?



Esther & Fester Bestertester
03-04-08, 11:37 PM
Small office, 12 drops w/4 cables at each drop (one drop has 6) = 50
terminations. False ceiling, no masonry walls. Longest distance from wiring
closet: 45 ft.

Above ceiling: dusty, dirty, filthy. Thick clouds of dust ever time a piece
of insulation is touched. Certainly a respirator job...

DId I mention dirty?

What would you charge for this job?

FBt

DTC
03-05-08, 12:15 AM
Esther & Fester Bestertester wrote:
> Small office, 12 drops w/4 cables at each drop (one drop has 6) = 50
> terminations. False ceiling, no masonry walls. Longest distance from wiring
> closet: 45 ft.
> What would you charge for this job?

$5,000

Adair Winter
03-05-08, 07:30 AM
"Esther & Fester Bestertester" <not@me.really> wrote in message
> Small office, 12 drops w/4 cables at each drop (one drop has 6) = 50
> terminations. False ceiling, no masonry walls. Longest distance from
> wiring
> closet: 45 ft.
>
> Above ceiling: dusty, dirty, filthy. Thick clouds of dust ever time a
> piece
> of insulation is touched. Certainly a respirator job...
>
> DId I mention dirty?
>
> What would you charge for this job?
>
> FBt

$4500 to $7500 if it's certified.

Adair

Bob F.
03-05-08, 08:17 AM
"Esther & Fester Bestertester" <not@me.really> wrote in message
news:0001HW.C3F3718F007C8EC0B01AD9AF@news.sf.sbcglobal.net...
> Small office, 12 drops w/4 cables at each drop (one drop has 6) = 50
> terminations. False ceiling, no masonry walls. Longest distance from
> wiring
> closet: 45 ft.
>
> Above ceiling: dusty, dirty, filthy. Thick clouds of dust ever time a
> piece
> of insulation is touched. Certainly a respirator job...
>
> DId I mention dirty?
>
> What would you charge for this job?
>
> FBt
>


Where?

--
BobF.

Esther & Fester Bestertester
03-05-08, 10:21 AM
> Where?

N. California: San Francisco bay area.

FBt

Esther & Fester Bestertester
03-05-08, 10:35 AM
> $4500 to $7500 if it's certified.
> Adair

"Certified", as in "we've tweaked the drivers and it's now transferring xx
Mbits/sec"?

Thanks,
FBt

Bob F.
03-05-08, 10:45 AM
"Esther & Fester Bestertester" <not@me.really> wrote in message
news:0001HW.C3F4087A0001E2EFB01AD9AF@news.sf.sbcglobal.net...
>> Where?
>
> N. California: San Francisco bay area.
>
> FBt
>


Are you kidding me! A couple of Grad students, some pizza and beer and it's
done!

--
BobF.

Adair Winter
03-05-08, 02:44 PM
"Bob F." <bob@furtawNOSPAN.com> wrote in message
news:0sOdnWxfG4mjU1PanZ2dnUVZ_vOlnZ2d@comcast.com...
> "Esther & Fester Bestertester" <not@me.really> wrote in message
> news:0001HW.C3F4087A0001E2EFB01AD9AF@news.sf.sbcglobal.net...
>>> Where?
>>
>> N. California: San Francisco bay area.
>>
>> FBt
>>
>
>
> Are you kidding me! A couple of Grad students, some pizza and beer and
> it's done!
>
and then it will need to be done right.
there is more to cabling then actually pulling the cable. you have to make
sure to not pull it to hard, kink it etc. then there is proper termination
techniques at both the patch panel and jack.
And if you really want to know that the stuff is going to work as designed,
the $10k tester to certify the cable.

Adair

Adair Winter
03-05-08, 02:49 PM
"Esther & Fester Bestertester" <not@me.really> wrote in message
news:0001HW.C3F40BCD0002AA79B01AD9AF@news.sf.sbcglobal.net...
>> $4500 to $7500 if it's certified.
>> Adair
>
> "Certified", as in "we've tweaked the drivers and it's now transferring xx
> Mbits/sec"?
>
> Thanks,
> FBt
>

Hardly, see http://www.vdvworks.com/UncleTed/test.html for a description.
Our Fluke DTX-1800 with fiber modules was about $15k.
It's important to have your drops certified if you want to know for a fact
that no matter what type of equipment you plug in will work to the designed
speed. Cables kinked or inproperly terminated can cause your entire network
to work at a much slower speed than designed.


Adair

DLR
03-05-08, 03:52 PM
Esther & Fester Bestertester wrote:
>> $4500 to $7500 if it's certified.
>> Adair
>
> "Certified", as in "we've tweaked the drivers and it's now transferring xx
> Mbits/sec"?

No. Certified as in the cable job meets the spec for Cat5e or Cat6 or whatever you contracted. Just using CatXX components doesn't mean the network is at CatXX network.

David

DTC
03-05-08, 04:30 PM
Esther & Fester Bestertester wrote:
>> $4500 to $7500 if it's certified.
>> Adair
>
> "Certified", as in "we've tweaked the drivers and it's now transferring xx
> Mbits/sec"?

Ummm...no. Certified means the cable has been tested with a $8,000 cable
tester. An install done by experienced installers should almost always
pass a certification test.

Bill Kearney
03-05-08, 05:17 PM
> Are you kidding me! A couple of Grad students, some pizza and beer and
> it's
> done!

And then deal with fines from the gov't of Kalifornia for failing to do it
to code.

Bob F.
03-05-08, 05:25 PM
"Bill Kearney" <wkearney99@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:38ednZsDkICOt1LanZ2dnUVZ_t6onZ2d@speakeasy.net...
>
>> Are you kidding me! A couple of Grad students, some pizza and beer and
>> it's
>> done!
>
> And then deal with fines from the gov't of Kalifornia for failing to do it
> to code.


Can't be anymore shoddy then the work I've seen by LOTS of "professionals".

--
BobF.

Jeff Liebermann
03-05-08, 07:00 PM
"Bob F." <bob@furtawNOSPAN.com> hath wroth:

>Can't be anymore shoddy then the work I've seen by LOTS of "professionals".

Ummm... Do you have something against professional wiring?
<http://802.11junk.com/jeffl/pics/drivel/slides/mess01.html>
<http://802.11junk.com/jeffl/pics/drivel/slides/wall-wart-01.html>

This was done by PacBell/SBC/AT&T installers:
<http://802.11junk.com/jeffl/pics/drivel/slides/Phone%20Room%20Before.html>
and was undone by me:
<http://802.11junk.com/jeffl/pics/drivel/slides/Phone%20Room%20After.html>
Ok, so I didn't round off the corners and I kludges in some plastic
cable clamps instead of the metal loops. I just happen to be working
on a bid to clean up and equally messy office phone room that was done
by PacBell/SBC/AT&T. I see $$$$$$$ in a professional mess.

Of course, these days, everything is going wireless:
<http://11junk.com/jeffl/pics/drivel/slides/monopoleBurn.html>
<http://odessaoffice.com/wireless/priceless.jpg>
which is quite an improvement.

How wiring is done in other countries. Consider yourself lucky:
<http://802.11junk.com/jeffl/pics/Beirut-Telco/index.html>


--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

DLR
03-06-08, 10:34 PM
Bob F. wrote:
> "Bill Kearney" <wkearney99@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:38ednZsDkICOt1LanZ2dnUVZ_t6onZ2d@speakeasy.net...
>>
>>> Are you kidding me! A couple of Grad students, some pizza and beer
>>> and it's
>>> done!
>>
>> And then deal with fines from the gov't of Kalifornia for failing to
>> do it to code.
>
>
> Can't be anymore shoddy then the work I've seen by LOTS of
> "professionals".
>
The sad part is you can put together a very shoddy looking network that passes certification.

David

DTC
03-07-08, 12:33 AM
DLR wrote:
> Bob F. wrote:
>> "Bill Kearney" <wkearney99@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>> Can't be anymore shoddy then the work I've seen by LOTS of
>> "professionals".
>>
> The sad part is you can put together a very shoddy looking network that
> passes certification.

If it passes certification, the installation part is good to go...
but trying to maintain a shoddy install is very time consuming.

Velcro (tm) is your friend.

And a good cable tag machine.

Robert Redelmeier
03-07-08, 08:33 AM
In comp.dcom.lans.ethernet DLR <news23@raleighthings.com> wrote in part:
> The sad part is you can put together a very shoddy
> looking network that passes certification.

Or a neat one that does not!

Messy is good for minimizing crosstalk.
Bad for changes.

-- Robert

Jeff Liebermann
03-07-08, 11:56 AM
DLR <news23@raleighthings.com> hath wroth:

>The sad part is you can put together a very shoddy looking network that passes certification.
>David

The bigger the mess, the better it works, to a point.

There are a few wiring installations that do not require moving things
around, such as for server farms and structured wiring between patch
panels. However, I run into far more "dynamic" installations, where
the topology, hardware, and even the company, changes every few
months. I had one (former) customer that would engage in regularly
scheduled reorganizations, which required substantial topology and
location changes to the network and servers. When we were done, there
were no ty-wraps, clamps, cable ties, lacing cords (or accurate
documentation) in the various wiring closets. There was no way to do
it neatly, although we did try. At another large company, there was a
large Visio plot on the wall in IT titled "Network of the Week". It
really did change every week.

Personally, I prefer loose wiring so that I can make changes easily.
Much as I would like to nail everything down, it just doesn't seem to
stay that way, so why bother?

As for a cable certifier, I would love to own and use one. However, I
can't afford it for my smaller customers and my larger (former)
customers wouldn't pay for gigabit certification. So, I use a
continuity tester which catches most of the gross errors. Not great,
but good enough. When I have a troubleshooting issue, I use a TDR
and/or SNMP managed switch to monitor framing errors (the usual
manifestation of crappy wiring).

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

DanS
03-07-08, 05:54 PM
"Adair Winter" <adairw@swbell.net> wrote in
news:BCDzj.8722$tW.4491@nlpi070.nbdc.sbc.com:

>
> "Bob F." <bob@furtawNOSPAN.com> wrote in message
> news:0sOdnWxfG4mjU1PanZ2dnUVZ_vOlnZ2d@comcast.com...
>> "Esther & Fester Bestertester" <not@me.really> wrote in message
>> news:0001HW.C3F4087A0001E2EFB01AD9AF@news.sf.sbcglobal.net...
>>>> Where?
>>>
>>> N. California: San Francisco bay area.
>>>
>>> FBt
>>>
>>
>>
>> Are you kidding me! A couple of Grad students, some pizza and beer
>> and it's done!
>>
> and then it will need to be done right.
> there is more to cabling then actually pulling the cable. you have to
> make sure to not pull it to hard, kink it etc. then there is proper
> termination techniques at both the patch panel and jack.
> And if you really want to know that the stuff is going to work as
> designed, the $10k tester to certify the cable.

Are you kidding me....it's _not_ rocket science,for most.....it's common
sense.

I also suppose you are willing to pay $50-$60 for an HDMI cable also.
(http://www.cablewholesale.com/catalog/hdmianddvicable.htm)
The $11 cables work great.

I was unable to find these $5000-$10000 testers you speak of.
(I'm not saying they don't exist, I just couldn't find any in 5 minutes
of Googling.)

Here's a $300 unit:

https://www.homenetworksupply.com/products_details.aspx?product_id=
5402064673&zmam=17011041&zmas=1&zmac=4&zmap=TP607

DTC
03-07-08, 07:47 PM
DanS wrote:
> Are you kidding me....it's _not_ rocket science,for most.....it's common
> sense.

For many contracts, its required you provide a performance audit of
your cable work.

> I was unable to find these $5000-$10000 testers you speak of.
> (I'm not saying they don't exist, I just couldn't find any in 5 minutes
> of Googling.)

http://www.specialized.net/ecommerce/shop/series.asp?category%5Fid=8

The ones that provide recordable audits run over $7,000.

> Here's a $300 unit: >
> https://www.homenetworksupply.com/products_details.aspx?product_id=
> 5402064673&zmam=17011041&zmas=1&zmac=4&zmap=TP607

A working link to the above: http://tinyurl.com/26lh27

I've used to have one, but its worthless at testing a cable beyond
wiring faults.

Bob F.
03-07-08, 08:58 PM
"DTC" <me@nothingtoseehere.zzx> wrote in message
news:nfmAj.8181$Mh2.7133@nlpi069.nbdc.sbc.com...
> DanS wrote:
>> Are you kidding me....it's _not_ rocket science,for most.....it's common
>> sense.
>
> For many contracts, its required you provide a performance audit of
> your cable work.

Yeah, well, we'll use the Ted Kennedy Strategy if that happens, you know
"We'll cross that bridge when we come to it!"

>
>> I was unable to find these $5000-$10000 testers you speak of.
>> (I'm not saying they don't exist, I just couldn't find any in 5 minutes
>> of Googling.)
>
> http://www.specialized.net/ecommerce/shop/series.asp?category%5Fid=8
>
> The ones that provide recordable audits run over $7,000.
>
>> Here's a $300 unit: >
>> https://www.homenetworksupply.com/products_details.aspx?product_id=
>> 5402064673&zmam=17011041&zmas=1&zmac=4&zmap=TP607
>
> A working link to the above: http://tinyurl.com/26lh27
>
> I've used to have one, but its worthless at testing a cable beyond
> wiring faults.

DanS
03-07-08, 10:16 PM
DTC <me@nothingtoseehere.zzx> wrote in
news:nfmAj.8181$Mh2.7133@nlpi069.nbdc.sbc.com:

> DanS wrote:
>> Are you kidding me....it's _not_ rocket science,for most.....it's
>> common sense.
>
> For many contracts, its required you provide a performance audit of
> your cable work.

Yes, understood. Being in the wireless biz myself, I know that clients
have different requirements of testing and certification for
products/services you provide them. It seems the larger the project,
there are more 'extras' that are required.

>
>> I was unable to find these $5000-$10000 testers you speak of.
>> (I'm not saying they don't exist, I just couldn't find any in 5
>> minutes of Googling.)
>
> http://www.specialized.net/ecommerce/shop/series.asp?category%5Fid=8
>
> The ones that provide recordable audits run over $7,000.

Fair enough...that particular unit looks to be a super-deluxe cats-ass
model and it does fiber as well. I've found some others since.

>> Here's a $300 unit: >
>> https://www.homenetworksupply.com/products_details.aspx?product_id=
>> 5402064673&zmam=17011041&zmas=1&zmac=4&zmap=TP607
>
> A working link to the above: http://tinyurl.com/26lh27
>
> I've used to have one, but its worthless at testing a cable beyond
> wiring faults.

Maybe, but if you follow the proper procedures and building code
regulations when installing, you shouldn't really run into many problems
other than wiring faults in smaller systems, as the OP needs.

DTC
03-08-08, 09:35 AM
DanS wrote:
> Maybe, but if you follow the proper procedures and building code
> regulations when installing, you shouldn't really run into many problems
> other than wiring faults in smaller systems, as the OP needs.

I totally agree. If you use best practices and common sense, you
shouldn't have any problems. Thinking back over a three year period,
of all the jacks I've put in only one didn't work. Even after
reterminating it, it still was bad so I replaced the jack.

CAT6 is a little different. I'd say one out of twenty may fail and
all you need to do is repunch the jack.

Interestingly was a test of stapling CAT5 cables. I read it on
some telecom installers forum where someone stapled a hundred
feet of cable with a box of staples and it passed certification.
While it might be all right to staple cables, there is too much
a chance of driving a staple through the cable.

Robert Redelmeier
03-08-08, 02:36 PM
In comp.dcom.lans.ethernet DTC <me@nothingtoseehere.zzx> wrote in part:
> Interestingly was a test of stapling CAT5 cables. I read it on
> some telecom installers forum where someone stapled a hundred
> feet of cable with a box of staples and it passed certification.
> While it might be all right to staple cables, there is too much
> a chance of driving a staple through the cable.

Not with the proper stapler or using the spacing nose-piece.

I don't doubt this worked if:

1) The staples didn't crimp the cable (ie, it could be slid
back & forth underneath the staple.

2) The staples were _irregularly_ spaced to avoid creating
a notch-filter.


-- Robert

DTC
03-08-08, 04:33 PM
Robert Redelmeier wrote:
> In comp.dcom.lans.ethernet DTC <me@nothingtoseehere.zzx> wrote in part:
>> Interestingly was a test of stapling CAT5 cables. I read it on
>> some telecom installers forum where someone stapled a hundred
>> feet of cable with a box of staples and it passed certification.
>> While it might be all right to staple cables, there is too much
>> a chance of driving a staple through the cable.
>
> Not with the proper stapler or using the spacing nose-piece.
>
> I don't doubt this worked if:
>
> 1) The staples didn't crimp the cable (ie, it could be slid
> back & forth underneath the staple.
>
> 2) The staples were _irregularly_ spaced to avoid creating
> a notch-filter.

Dang it...I wasn't thinking and hit SEND.

I was going to add that when we tested a twenty foot length stapled
around a base board with a TDR, we could see disconuities where
the T-25 staples were...which gives credibility of creating a
notch filter as well as other SWR issues.

We try to avoid stapling and use wire molding, but if thats not an
option, we'll use a staple gun that uses stand off staples.

From Lowes - Cable Boss™ Mechanical Staple Gun

http://www.lowes.com/lowes/lkn?action=productDetail&productId=92986-1781-MSG-501&lpage=none
http://tinyurl.com/2so26p

msg
03-08-08, 05:41 PM
DTC wrote:

<snip>
>
> I was going to add that when we tested a twenty foot length stapled
> around a base board with a TDR, we could see disconuities where
> the T-25 staples were...which gives credibility of creating a
> notch filter as well as other SWR issues.

Try the experiment with a length of cable suspended in the air
between two points and simple lay the staples on top of it;
if you say any effects I would be truly surprised.

Michael

msg
03-08-08, 10:43 PM
msg wrote:

> DTC wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
>>
>> I was going to add that when we tested a twenty foot length stapled
>> around a base board with a TDR, we could see disconuities where
>> the T-25 staples were...which gives credibility of creating a
>> notch filter as well as other SWR issues.
>
>
> Try the experiment with a length of cable suspended in the air
> between two points and simple lay the staples on top of it;
> if you say any effects I would be truly surprised.
>
> Michael

Cold fingers on a crappy keyboard...
s/simple/simply/
s/say/see/

Michael

DLR
03-08-08, 10:49 PM
DTC wrote:
> DLR wrote:
>> Bob F. wrote:
>>> "Bill Kearney" <wkearney99@hotmail.com> wrote in message Can't be
>>> anymore shoddy then the work I've seen by LOTS of "professionals".
>>>
>> The sad part is you can put together a very shoddy looking network
>> that passes certification.
>
> If it passes certification, the installation part is good to go...
> but trying to maintain a shoddy install is very time consuming.
>
> Velcro (tm) is your friend.
>
> And a good cable tag machine.

To ad to this. For the frequent change situations, slotted raceway can hold extra cable and look nice also.

David

DLR
03-08-08, 10:54 PM
msg wrote:
> DTC wrote:
>
> <snip>
>>
>> I was going to add that when we tested a twenty foot length stapled
>> around a base board with a TDR, we could see disconuities where
>> the T-25 staples were...which gives credibility of creating a
>> notch filter as well as other SWR issues.
>
> Try the experiment with a length of cable suspended in the air
> between two points and simple lay the staples on top of it;
> if you say any effects I would be truly surprised.

But over time? Buildings and walls vibrate. Depends on what is bolted to what where. AC on the roof over the load bearing wall you're using? Subway under your foundation? These kinds of things cause staples and sharp corners and whatever to migrate into the casing or through it and the insulation. So everything is fine for 1 to 10 years then you get a series of ongoing failures.

Similar to my house built in 63. I bought it in 90. I had a water leak show up somewhere about every 6 to 12 months. I just figured it was the old compression fittings failing due to corrosion. Turned out my water pressure was about 160 psi. Once I put in a regulator and took it down to less than 80 I've not had a leak in 5 years.

Think of those staples as a long term problems developing slowly.

David Ross

Esther & Fester Bestertester
03-08-08, 11:14 PM
> To ad to this. For the frequent change situations, slotted raceway can hold
> extra cable and look nice also.
>
> David

Can you point to an example of this? Sounds cool...

FBt

msg
03-09-08, 12:34 AM
DLR wrote:

> msg wrote:
>
>> DTC wrote:
>>
>> <snip>
>>
>>>
>>> I was going to add that when we tested a twenty foot length stapled
>>> around a base board with a TDR, we could see disconuities where
>>> the T-25 staples were...which gives credibility of creating a
>>> notch filter as well as other SWR issues.
>>
>>
>> Try the experiment with a length of cable suspended in the air
>> between two points and simply lay the staples on top of it;
>> if you see any effects I would be truly surprised.
>

<snip>
>
> Think of those staples as a long term problems developing slowly.

That was my point although not clearly made; I believe that the
compression of the cable would be responsible for any TDR effects
seen.

Michael

DTC
03-09-08, 08:06 AM
msg wrote:
> DTC wrote:
>> I was going to add that when we tested a twenty foot length stapled
>> around a base board with a TDR, we could see disconuities where
>> the T-25 staples were...which gives credibility of creating a
>> notch filter as well as other SWR issues.
>
> Try the experiment with a length of cable suspended in the air
> between two points and simple lay the staples on top of it;
> if you say any effects I would be truly surprised.

So would I.

Now try it again with it stapled to plywood and where the staples
deform the outside jacket.

DTC
03-09-08, 08:13 AM
Esther & Fester Bestertester wrote:
> slotted raceway

http://www.panduit.com/products/browse.asp?classid=1006

Esther & Fester Bestertester
03-09-08, 11:43 AM
> http://www.panduit.com/products/browse.asp?classid=1006

Oh, yes, these. I know them. I was picturing a longitudinal slot, which I
hadn't seen before...

Thanks,
FBt

DLR
03-10-08, 04:06 PM
Esther & Fester Bestertester wrote:
>> http://www.panduit.com/products/browse.asp?classid=1006
>
> Oh, yes, these. I know them. I was picturing a longitudinal slot, which I
> hadn't seen before...

What I've done is put these vertically one or two side by side where cables come into the area. Run them down and back up and out to the patch panels as needed. The slack is under the covers and what you see is neat.