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View Full Version : Lady-in-Distress needs your help Re.WiFi Connections please!



Snowdrop
02-09-08, 09:18 AM
-Hello All, I hope you can push me in the right direction regarding the
MINEFIELD I've found with WiFi networking!

To start then this is what I want to do. I tried before Christmas and
it all went horribly wrong, I took the stuff back for refund and now
want to try again.

A] 1 PC, 1 Laptop. Want to be able to access the Internet (maybe both
machines at the same time if possible).

B] I live in the country so although the security side of it (WEP,
WPA/PSK) is important, I'm not likely to have
neighbours/nasty-people-in-Vans-parked-outside stealing info.

C] Neither PC or Lappy has wireless adapter inside - I need dongles or
PC Adapter card

Is it possible to a) Hard-wire WiFi modem/router into back of PC then
b) install dongle/or PC Adapter in lappy, rather than have dongles in
BOTH PC and lappy? OR do I need to use dongles/adapter cards in BOTH PC
AND lappy?

Which TYPE of modem/router do I need? There are sooo many
types/standards, difficult for the absolute beginner to know WHICH one
to go for, but I think (after reading a lot online) G+ probably OK? What
about N standard? And what is MIMO ?

D] Next question is - What's the best manufacturer? There are quite a
few sets costing in the £40 -s now, as there are in the £90 -s - Belkin,
NetGear, Buffalo, etc etc. Which seems to be the Easiest and mist
reliable please, but not costing the Earth?

E] BT customer, not Cable.

Sadly, because I live out-in-the-sticks, I can only have BB connection
of 512 anyway, but as long as it doesn't degrade slower than this it's
fine. Just need to wait for BT to get their act together for us
country-bumpkins!!

I'd be very grateful if someone could help me out with this.

Thank you,

xxx-


------------------------------------------------------------------------
View this thread: http://www.wirelessforums.org/showthread.php?t=38421
http://www.wirelessforums.org

John Navas
02-09-08, 10:06 AM
On Sat, 9 Feb 2008 10:18:44 -0500, Snowdrop
<Snowdrop.34is4l@no-mx.wirelessforums.org> wrote in
<Snowdrop.34is4l@no-mx.wirelessforums.org>:

>A] 1 PC, 1 Laptop. Want to be able to access the Internet (maybe both
>machines at the same time if possible).

Definitely possible.

>B] I live in the country so although the security side of it (WEP,
>WPA/PSK) is important, I'm not likely to have
>neighbours/nasty-people-in-Vans-parked-outside stealing info.

Risky assumption. No good reason not to use WPA with a strong
passphrase.

>C] Neither PC or Lappy has wireless adapter inside - I need dongles or
>PC Adapter card

Or non-dongle USB adapter. Or wireless Ethernet client bridge.

>Is it possible to a) Hard-wire WiFi modem/router into back of PC then
>b) install dongle/or PC Adapter in lappy, rather than have dongles in
>BOTH PC and lappy? OR do I need to use dongles/adapter cards in BOTH PC
>AND lappy?

Hard wire? You mean connect the PC with Ethernet to the router instead
of wireless? Sure. Pretty much all wireless routers include a number
of wired ports. The PC can be wired or wireless, and the laptop can be
wired or wireless.

>Which TYPE of modem/router do I need? There are sooo many
>types/standards, difficult for the absolute beginner to know WHICH one
>to go for, but I think (after reading a lot online) G+ probably OK? What
>about N standard? And what is MIMO ?

Forget about all the marketing crap. All you need is good quality
802.11g wireless.

>D] Next question is - What's the best manufacturer? There are quite a
>few sets costing in the £40 -s now, as there are in the £90 -s - Belkin,
>NetGear, Buffalo, etc etc. Which seems to be the Easiest and mist
>reliable please, but not costing the Earth?

My favorite brand is Buffalo, but that gear is now barred from the US
market due to a patent dispute. Belkin is bottom of the barrel.
Hawking is cheap and decent. Likewise Netgear, D-Link and Linksys.
Also TRENDnet. Suggest:

* Linksys WRT54GL Wireless Router (note the L)
* Netgear WG511 PC Card

>E] BT customer, not Cable.

DSL? Then you'll want a DSL modem with an Ethernet connection for the
wireless router.

>I'd be very grateful if someone could help me out with this.

The wiki below has lots of useful information.

--
Best regards, FAQ for Wireless Internet: <http://Wireless.wikia.com>
John Navas FAQ for Wi-Fi: <http://wireless.wikia.com/wiki/Wi-Fi>
Wi-Fi How To: <http://wireless.wikia.com/wiki/Wi-Fi_HowTo>
Fixes to Wi-Fi Problems: <http://wireless.wikia.com/wiki/Wi-Fi_Fixes>

Mark McIntyre
02-09-08, 11:14 AM
John Navas wrote:
> On Sat, 9 Feb 2008 10:18:44 -0500, Snowdrop
> <Snowdrop.34is4l@no-mx.wirelessforums.org> wrote in
> <Snowdrop.34is4l@no-mx.wirelessforums.org>:
>
>
>> E] BT customer, not Cable.
>
> DSL?

I guess she's in the UK, where BT are the phone network provider and who
provide ADSL in many cases.

To the OP: does your existing ISP-supplied modem have an ethernet port?
If not, put it away in a cupboard and look for a wireless ADSL-ready
router.

Martin²
02-09-08, 07:12 PM
Snowdrop,
if you only getting 512kb/s you are long way from your exchange and will
have problem with signal attenuation and SNR (Signal to Noise Ratio).
By far the best WiFi router I have found for those condition is BT1800,
BT1801 or BT 2700 made by 2Wire (US co).
BT used to provide them to business customers, but you can buy them on Ebay
from £5 !
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/BT-Openworld-Intelligent-Gateway-1800-ADSL-Router_W0QQitemZ300196277935QQihZ020QQcategoryZ101270QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

If you have trouble with the link, just look for item No. 300196277935

As for receivers:
WiFi travels in mysterious ways and you don't always get a good signal where
you need it, and sometimes couple of inches makes all the difference.
The problem with PCI cards is that it is likely to be positioned under a
desk or at least low down and the computer case itself shields the aerial.
And you can't very well put it where it would work best.
In my experience and USB adaptor with stand and length of cable (can be up
to 5m) is the best solution.
You can easily position it where you get the best signal, often higher is
better, and if need be you can put a simple V folded card covered with
aluminium foil on a side behind the USB dongle.
D-Link G122 works so well for me, I bought 2 more now.
Again, you can find them on Ebay.
Regards,
Martin

John Navas
02-09-08, 08:37 PM
On Sat, 09 Feb 2008 17:14:58 +0000, Mark McIntyre
<markmcintyre@spamcop.net> wrote in
<mclrj.4345$ts1.1741@en-nntp-03.am2.easynews.com>:

>John Navas wrote:
>> On Sat, 9 Feb 2008 10:18:44 -0500, Snowdrop
>> <Snowdrop.34is4l@no-mx.wirelessforums.org> wrote in
>> <Snowdrop.34is4l@no-mx.wirelessforums.org>:
>>
>>> E] BT customer, not Cable.
>>
>> DSL?
>
>I guess she's in the UK, where BT are the phone network provider and who
>provide ADSL in many cases.
>
>To the OP: does your existing ISP-supplied modem have an ethernet port?
>If not, put it away in a cupboard and look for a wireless ADSL-ready
>router.

Better yet, look for a DSL modem with an Ethernet port.

--
Best regards, FAQ for Wireless Internet: <http://Wireless.wikia.com>
John Navas FAQ for Wi-Fi: <http://wireless.wikia.com/wiki/Wi-Fi>
Wi-Fi How To: <http://wireless.wikia.com/wiki/Wi-Fi_HowTo>
Fixes to Wi-Fi Problems: <http://wireless.wikia.com/wiki/Wi-Fi_Fixes>

Mark McIntyre
02-10-08, 04:08 AM
John Navas wrote:
> On Sat, 09 Feb 2008 17:14:58 +0000, Mark McIntyre
> <markmcintyre@spamcop.net> wrote in
> <mclrj.4345$ts1.1741@en-nntp-03.am2.easynews.com>:
>
>> To the OP: does your existing ISP-supplied modem have an ethernet port?
>> If not, put it away in a cupboard and look for a wireless ADSL-ready
>> router.
>
> Better yet, look for a DSL modem with an Ethernet port.

At double the cost and complexity.

In fact I agree in most cases, but for someone fairly nontechnical,
having to buy and configure two separate pieces of kit is probably
excessive.

--
Mark McIntyre

CLC FAQ <http://c-faq.com/>
CLC readme: <http://www.ungerhu.com/jxh/clc.welcome.txt>

John Navas
02-10-08, 03:52 PM
On Sun, 10 Feb 2008 10:08:21 +0000, Mark McIntyre
<markmcintyre@spamcop.net> wrote in
<q2Arj.4348$ts1.2868@en-nntp-03.am2.easynews.com>:

>John Navas wrote:
>> On Sat, 09 Feb 2008 17:14:58 +0000, Mark McIntyre
>> <markmcintyre@spamcop.net> wrote in
>> <mclrj.4345$ts1.1741@en-nntp-03.am2.easynews.com>:
>>
>>> To the OP: does your existing ISP-supplied modem have an ethernet port?
>>> If not, put it away in a cupboard and look for a wireless ADSL-ready
>>> router.
>>
>> Better yet, look for a DSL modem with an Ethernet port.
>
>At double the cost and complexity.

Not that much more expensive, not at all complex, and much easier to
deal with individual pieces. IMHO at least.

>In fact I agree in most cases, but for someone fairly nontechnical,
>having to buy and configure two separate pieces of kit is probably
>excessive.

I personally think it's usually better in the long run.

--
Best regards, FAQ for Wireless Internet: <http://Wireless.wikia.com>
John Navas FAQ for Wi-Fi: <http://wireless.wikia.com/wiki/Wi-Fi>
Wi-Fi How To: <http://wireless.wikia.com/wiki/Wi-Fi_HowTo>
Fixes to Wi-Fi Problems: <http://wireless.wikia.com/wiki/Wi-Fi_Fixes>

Jeff Liebermann
02-10-08, 04:12 PM
Mark McIntyre <markmcintyre@spamcop.net> hath wroth:

>John Navas wrote:
>> On Sat, 09 Feb 2008 17:14:58 +0000, Mark McIntyre
>> <markmcintyre@spamcop.net> wrote in
>> <mclrj.4345$ts1.1741@en-nntp-03.am2.easynews.com>:
>>
>>> To the OP: does your existing ISP-supplied modem have an ethernet port?
>>> If not, put it away in a cupboard and look for a wireless ADSL-ready
>>> router.
>>
>> Better yet, look for a DSL modem with an Ethernet port.

>At double the cost and complexity.

Not if the ISP subsidizes the DSL modem as AT&T does. It's also not
double as DSL modems are available on eBay for literally the cost of
shipping.

>In fact I agree in most cases, but for someone fairly nontechnical,
>having to buy and configure two separate pieces of kit is probably
>excessive.

Well, there are a few situations where an all in one box is a bad
idea.

1. Intrusion detection. The traffic sniffer goes between the modem
and router. The connection point is inaccessible in a conglomerated
package.
2. Moving from a DSL to a cable modem or shared internet environment
requires the replacement of the wireless router. If the modem and
router were in seperate boxes, only the modem would need to be
replaced.
3. Location, location, and location. DSL phone cables tend to live
near the floor. Wireless devices like to live up high for best
coverage. Putting the DSL/wireless router conglomeration near the
floor usually results in lousy range. With seperate boxes, it's much
easier to optimize the locations.
4. The latest fashion in DSL/wireless/router combinations is to have
only one ethernet port due to lack of panel space to handle added
features such as a USB printer port. Adding wired computers usually
involves adding an ethernet switch.
5. DSL modems are often sensitive to digital and RF noise. I have an
(unconfirmed) suspicion that some of the odd DSL performance issues
I'm seeing ocassionally are due to RF getting into the DSL front end.
6. It's MUCH easier to troubleshoot networking problems if you can
easily replace a functional section.
7. Mutliple boxes are cool looking and give everyone the impression
that you're a networking geek. Impress your friends.

Incidentally, the secret to successfully interconnecting a mess of
consumer networking boxes is to use very flexible stranded CAT5
interconnection cable. The modem and wireless boxes are so light,
that they slide around on a shelf. The stiff CAT5 wire makes stacking
boxes difficult, but stranded works nicely.

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

Mark McIntyre
02-10-08, 05:27 PM
John Navas wrote:
> On Sun, 10 Feb 2008 10:08:21 +0000, Mark McIntyre
> <markmcintyre@spamcop.net> wrote in
> <q2Arj.4348$ts1.2868@en-nntp-03.am2.easynews.com>:
>
>> John Navas wrote:
>>> On Sat, 09 Feb 2008 17:14:58 +0000, Mark McIntyre
>>> <markmcintyre@spamcop.net> wrote in
>>> <mclrj.4345$ts1.1741@en-nntp-03.am2.easynews.com>:
>>>
>>>> To the OP: does your existing ISP-supplied modem have an ethernet port?
>>>> If not, put it away in a cupboard and look for a wireless ADSL-ready
>>>> router.
>>> Better yet, look for a DSL modem with an Ethernet port.
>> At double the cost and complexity.
>
> Not that much more expensive,

In the UK, APs are often MORE expensive than ADSL-ready wireless
routers. For example one online retailer has a cheap wireless router for
£25, while their cheapest AP is £31 and cheapest wired router is about
£20. To get name-brands (ie not generic own-brand, belkin or edimax),
you have to step up by about a fiver on each.

> not at all complex, and much easier to
> deal with individual pieces. IMHO at least.

I would tend to agree but often all-in-one units come with all-in-one
instructions and all-in-one idiot-proof configs.

Myself, I have a wired router attached to a cable modem, with two
wireless routers acting as APs hanging off the end of cat5 from the
'main' router.

Mark McIntyre
02-10-08, 05:31 PM
Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> Mark McIntyre <markmcintyre@spamcop.net> hath wroth:
>
>> John Navas wrote:
>>> On Sat, 09 Feb 2008 17:14:58 +0000, Mark McIntyre
>>> <markmcintyre@spamcop.net> wrote in
>>> <mclrj.4345$ts1.1741@en-nntp-03.am2.easynews.com>:
>>>
>>>> To the OP: does your existing ISP-supplied modem have an ethernet port?
>>>> If not, put it away in a cupboard and look for a wireless ADSL-ready
>>>> router.
>>> Better yet, look for a DSL modem with an Ethernet port.
>
>> At double the cost and complexity.
>
> Not if the ISP subsidizes the DSL modem as AT&T does.

Agreed. However many UK ISPs supply a USB_only DSL modem, with the
option of a one-port router for extra cash.

> It's also not
> double as DSL modems are available on eBay for literally the cost of
> shipping.

I make a point of never buying stuff from ebay that I actually need to
rely on to function.... :-)

> Well, there are a few situations where an all in one box is a bad
> idea.

I don't disagree at all.

> Incidentally, the secret to successfully interconnecting a mess of
> consumer networking boxes is to use very flexible stranded CAT5
> interconnection cable. The modem and wireless boxes are so light,
> that they slide around on a shelf. The stiff CAT5 wire makes stacking
> boxes difficult, but stranded works nicely.

I wallmounted all mine and used custom-made cabling cut to length.

Jeff Liebermann
02-10-08, 05:47 PM
Mark McIntyre <markmcintyre@spamcop.net> hath wroth:

>I would tend to agree but often all-in-one units come with all-in-one
>instructions and all-in-one idiot-proof configs.

Idiots don't read instructions, so instructions written for idiots
will never be read. Besides, most of the routers these days come
with:
1. Wholesale repudiation of responsibility written in legalese.
2. Overly simplified installation giant foldout suitable for
recycling.
3. Warranty limitations in 15 assorted languages.
4. A "Read Me First" document that says to shove in the included
CDROM and to call support if you're stuck.

If there are any useful instruction in the box, it's been a long time
since I've seen any.

>Myself, I have a wired router attached to a cable modem, with two
>wireless routers acting as APs hanging off the end of cat5 from the
>'main' router.

My setup of the week is:
1. Efficient 5360 (junk) DSL modem.
2. Buffalo WHR-HP-G54 with DD-WRT v24 RC6.2 wireless router with
external antenna running the neighborhood WLAN.
3. Linksys WRT54Gv4 running the local LAN and WLAN.
4. Panasonic Toughbook CF-M34 running various sniffer, monitoring,
and IDS applications.

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

Jeff Liebermann
02-10-08, 06:08 PM
Mark McIntyre <markmcintyre@spamcop.net> hath wroth:

>>> At double the cost and complexity.
>>
>> Not if the ISP subsidizes the DSL modem as AT&T does.

>Agreed. However many UK ISPs supply a USB_only DSL modem, with the
>option of a one-port router for extra cash.

Yech. I've never found the USB DSL modems useful for anything more
than testing. I wonder why they do that as ethernet DSL modems aren't
any more expensive than USB.

Incidentally, note the retail prices from SBC/AT&T:
<http://www.sbcdslstore.com/Catalog/ProductCategories.asp?CategoryId=catMRG&SortBy=&SortOrder=DESC&num=999999>

>> Well, there are a few situations where an all in one box is a bad
>> idea.
>
>I don't disagree at all.

Ok. In my never humble opinion, the few and marginal benifits of a
conglomerated package, do not offer much in view of the potential
disadvantages that I listed. Incidentally, literally all of the
conglomerated DSL/router combinations boxes I've accumulated and
resold were the result of someone moving to a cable connection, and
discovering that their equipment was useless.

>I wallmounted all mine and used custom-made cabling cut to length.

I was referring to my customers installations. I don't have time to
cut custom cables on site. I recently obtained about 300ea 1 meter
long cables. All are stranded CAT5e cable with molded and protected
ends. They pass in a gigabit cable tester (even though stranded wire
should not be expected to pass). That should take care of my installs
for perhaps 2 years. The 1 meter length is a bit much for box
interconnects, but seems ideal for general purpose cables. If I get
ambitious, I may build a pile of shorter jumper cables.

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

John Navas
02-10-08, 06:24 PM
On Sun, 10 Feb 2008 23:27:45 +0000, Mark McIntyre
<markmcintyre@spamcop.net> wrote in
<XLLrj.17402$ng7.2799@en-nntp-05.dc1.easynews.com>:

>John Navas wrote:
>> On Sun, 10 Feb 2008 10:08:21 +0000, Mark McIntyre
>> <markmcintyre@spamcop.net> wrote in
>> <q2Arj.4348$ts1.2868@en-nntp-03.am2.easynews.com>:
>>
>>> John Navas wrote:
>>>> On Sat, 09 Feb 2008 17:14:58 +0000, Mark McIntyre
>>>> <markmcintyre@spamcop.net> wrote in
>>>> <mclrj.4345$ts1.1741@en-nntp-03.am2.easynews.com>:
>>>>
>>>>> To the OP: does your existing ISP-supplied modem have an ethernet port?
>>>>> If not, put it away in a cupboard and look for a wireless ADSL-ready
>>>>> router.
>>>> Better yet, look for a DSL modem with an Ethernet port.
>>> At double the cost and complexity.
>>
>> Not that much more expensive,
>
>In the UK, APs are often MORE expensive than ADSL-ready wireless
>routers. For example one online retailer has a cheap wireless router for
>£25, while their cheapest AP is £31 and cheapest wired router is about
>£20. To get name-brands (ie not generic own-brand, belkin or edimax),
>you have to step up by about a fiver on each.

I can't speak to the UK, but here in the USA Ethernet equipped DSL
modems are dirt cheap or even free from the service provider, and
wireless routers that can be configured as access points are cheap.

>> not at all complex, and much easier to
>> deal with individual pieces. IMHO at least.
>
>I would tend to agree but often all-in-one units come with all-in-one
>instructions and all-in-one idiot-proof configs.

I've all too often had to bail out people where "idiot-proof"
configuration had failed.

--
Best regards, FAQ for Wireless Internet: <http://Wireless.wikia.com>
John Navas FAQ for Wi-Fi: <http://wireless.wikia.com/wiki/Wi-Fi>
Wi-Fi How To: <http://wireless.wikia.com/wiki/Wi-Fi_HowTo>
Fixes to Wi-Fi Problems: <http://wireless.wikia.com/wiki/Wi-Fi_Fixes>

John Navas
02-10-08, 06:26 PM
On Sun, 10 Feb 2008 23:31:16 +0000, Mark McIntyre
<markmcintyre@spamcop.net> wrote in
<fPLrj.5617$ea6.792@en-nntp-01.dc1.easynews.com>:

>Jeff Liebermann wrote:

>> It's also not
>> double as DSL modems are available on eBay for literally the cost of
>> shipping.
>
>I make a point of never buying stuff from ebay that I actually need to
>rely on to function.... :-)

Your choice, but a shame in my experience -- I've gotten lots of great
deals on eBay.

--
Best regards, FAQ for Wireless Internet: <http://Wireless.wikia.com>
John Navas FAQ for Wi-Fi: <http://wireless.wikia.com/wiki/Wi-Fi>
Wi-Fi How To: <http://wireless.wikia.com/wiki/Wi-Fi_HowTo>
Fixes to Wi-Fi Problems: <http://wireless.wikia.com/wiki/Wi-Fi_Fixes>

Jeff Liebermann
02-10-08, 07:17 PM
John Navas <spamfilter1@navasgroup.com> hath wroth:

>On Sun, 10 Feb 2008 23:31:16 +0000, Mark McIntyre
><markmcintyre@spamcop.net> wrote in
><fPLrj.5617$ea6.792@en-nntp-01.dc1.easynews.com>:
>
>>Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>
>>> It's also not
>>> double as DSL modems are available on eBay for literally the cost of
>>> shipping.
>>
>>I make a point of never buying stuff from ebay that I actually need to
>>rely on to function.... :-)

>Your choice, but a shame in my experience -- I've gotten lots of great
>deals on eBay.

Sometimes I win. Sometimes I lose. For my latest fiasco, see:
<http://802.11junk.com/jeffl/pics/home/slides/BL-shop5.html>
On the left is a pile of HP 8620a/c sweep generators. On the right
are two Wavetek 3000a service monitors plus one on the shelf. Only
the one on the shelf works.

All 6 boxes were purchased as sorta working (varies by the creative
descriptions) for much less than what a working and properly tested
unit would have cost. When I get two of these working, I'll have the
3rd unit for spare parts.

My never humble advice on buying DSL modems, routers, and wireless
devices on eBay is to buy two. The prices are much less than retail
and if you really want at least one to work, you'll need to buy a
spare. Be prepared to do a firmware update on arrival.

I hate to admit how much hardware I've bought on eBay. Most of the
hardware shown on my current workbench are eBay purchases. In most
cases, I get better service, better quality, and better prices on eBay
than retail or mail order. I have yet to be cheated, have filed no
grievances with eBay, and have had only one major misunderstanding
(which was eventually solved to everyone's satisfaction). If I have
anything to complain about eBay, it's that many vendors offer very
vague and terse descriptions, miserable photos, and bizarre terms.
Caveat Emptor.
--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

Mark McIntyre
02-11-08, 05:31 PM
Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> John Navas <spamfilter1@navasgroup.com> hath wroth:
>
>> On Sun, 10 Feb 2008 23:31:16 +0000, Mark McIntyre
>> <markmcintyre@spamcop.net> wrote in
>>> I make a point of never buying stuff from ebay that I actually need to
>>> rely on to function.... :-)
>
>> Your choice, but a shame in my experience -- I've gotten lots of great
>> deals on eBay.
>
> Sometimes I win. Sometimes I lose.

My biggest issue is that my brother in law runs an antiques business
using ebay. So I get to see precisely how such sellers and buyers
operate .... Kinda like eating turkey after working night-shift in the
poultry-gutting works... :-)

Char Jackson
07-27-08, 04:24 PM
On Sun, 10 Feb 2008 23:31:16 +0000, Mark McIntyre
<markmcintyre@spamcop.net> wrote:

>Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>
>> Incidentally, the secret to successfully interconnecting a mess of
>> consumer networking boxes is to use very flexible stranded CAT5
>> interconnection cable. The modem and wireless boxes are so light,
>> that they slide around on a shelf. The stiff CAT5 wire makes stacking
>> boxes difficult, but stranded works nicely.
>
>I wallmounted all mine and used custom-made cabling cut to length.

[old thread alert]

By chance, do you have a picture of your wall full of networking
items, with custom cabling? That's gotta be a bit bizarre and not
entirely wife-approved, or at least it wouldn't be in my house. :-)

Jeff Liebermann
07-27-08, 04:34 PM
On Sun, 27 Jul 2008 16:24:03 -0500, Char Jackson <none@none.invalid>
wrote:

>On Sun, 10 Feb 2008 23:31:16 +0000, Mark McIntyre
><markmcintyre@spamcop.net> wrote:
>
>>Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>>
>>> Incidentally, the secret to successfully interconnecting a mess of
>>> consumer networking boxes is to use very flexible stranded CAT5
>>> interconnection cable. The modem and wireless boxes are so light,
>>> that they slide around on a shelf. The stiff CAT5 wire makes stacking
>>> boxes difficult, but stranded works nicely.
>>
>>I wallmounted all mine and used custom-made cabling cut to length.
>
>[old thread alert]

Yeah, 5 months later.

>By chance, do you have a picture of your wall full of networking
>items, with custom cabling? That's gotta be a bit bizarre and not
>entirely wife-approved, or at least it wouldn't be in my house. :-)

For some Linksys devices, see wall mount at:
<http://www.linksys.com/servlet/Satellite?c=L_Product_C2&childpagename=US%2FLayout&cid=1115416908686&pagename=Linksys%2FCommon%2FVisitorWrapper>
$25 for 10 of them.

Neatness counts:
<http://802.11junk.com/jeffl/pics/drivel/slides/mess01.html>
<http://802.11junk.com/jeffl/pics/drivel/slides/wall-wart-01.html>

Cut to length wiring is a good idea:
<http://802.11junk.com/jeffl/pics/Beirut-Telco/slides/beirut-telco-03.html>



--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

Char Jackson
07-28-08, 01:08 PM
On Sun, 27 Jul 2008 14:34:16 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>
wrote:

>On Sun, 27 Jul 2008 16:24:03 -0500, Char Jackson <none@none.invalid>
>wrote:
>
>>On Sun, 10 Feb 2008 23:31:16 +0000, Mark McIntyre
>><markmcintyre@spamcop.net> wrote:
>>
>>>Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>>>
>>>> Incidentally, the secret to successfully interconnecting a mess of
>>>> consumer networking boxes is to use very flexible stranded CAT5
>>>> interconnection cable. The modem and wireless boxes are so light,
>>>> that they slide around on a shelf. The stiff CAT5 wire makes stacking
>>>> boxes difficult, but stranded works nicely.
>>>
>>>I wallmounted all mine and used custom-made cabling cut to length.
>>
>>[old thread alert]
>
>Yeah, 5 months later.
>
>>By chance, do you have a picture of your wall full of networking
>>items, with custom cabling? That's gotta be a bit bizarre and not
>>entirely wife-approved, or at least it wouldn't be in my house. :-)
>
>For some Linksys devices, see wall mount at:
><http://www.linksys.com/servlet/Satellite?c=L_Product_C2&childpagename=US%2FLayout&cid=1115416908686&pagename=Linksys%2FCommon%2FVisitorWrapper>
>$25 for 10 of them.

Thanks, I knew about the wall mount option but haven't actually seen a
wall covered with multiple units.
>Neatness counts:
><http://802.11junk.com/jeffl/pics/drivel/slides/mess01.html>
><http://802.11junk.com/jeffl/pics/drivel/slides/wall-wart-01.html>
>
>Cut to length wiring is a good idea:
><http://802.11junk.com/jeffl/pics/Beirut-Telco/slides/beirut-telco-03.html>

Amazing photos. :)

Mark McIntyre
07-28-08, 04:23 PM
Char Jackson wrote:
> On Sun, 27 Jul 2008 14:34:16 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>
> wrote:
>> <http://802.11junk.com/jeffl/pics/drivel/slides/wall-wart-01.html>

Yikes! This photo qualifies for the "never never never do this"
electrical safety manual. Do you really run stuff like that? And live in
a timber house in the middle of the woods? Egad!

Do you also stand on hilltops in a thunderstorm, waving a sword, wearing
copper armour and shouting "all the gods are barstewards" ? :-)

Char Jackson
07-28-08, 05:08 PM
On Mon, 28 Jul 2008 22:23:08 +0100, Mark McIntyre
<markmcintyre@TROUSERSspamcop.net> wrote:

>Char Jackson wrote:
>> On Sun, 27 Jul 2008 14:34:16 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>
>> wrote:
>>> <http://802.11junk.com/jeffl/pics/drivel/slides/wall-wart-01.html>
>
>Yikes! This photo qualifies for the "never never never do this"
>electrical safety manual. Do you really run stuff like that? And live in
>a timber house in the middle of the woods? Egad!
>
>Do you also stand on hilltops in a thunderstorm, waving a sword, wearing
>copper armour and shouting "all the gods are barstewards" ? :-)

You quoted me, but I think your comments are addressed to Jeff. :)

Still, I don't see too much wrong with the wall wart pic. It's not
like the outlet is overloaded or anything. It looks messy, though.

I use those 12" extensions here, but the result is about the same.

Jeff Liebermann
07-29-08, 10:51 AM
On Mon, 28 Jul 2008 22:23:08 +0100, Mark McIntyre
<markmcintyre@TROUSERSspamcop.net> wrote:

>>> <http://802.11junk.com/jeffl/pics/drivel/slides/wall-wart-01.html>
>
>Yikes! This photo qualifies for the "never never never do this"
>electrical safety manual. Do you really run stuff like that? And live in
>a timber house in the middle of the woods? Egad!

Disclaimer: I are not an electrician and am not an expert on the NEC
or acceptable practices.

I created a huge arguement over the legality and safety of such an
arrangement and power strips in general. Short summary: Strictly
speaking, there's nothing in the NFPA electrical code that prevents
doing that for home use. It's considered bad practice, but not unsafe
for industrical, and military installations. It's totally unsafe for
medical practice.

However, it's not the cube taps that are the problem. It's the power
strip. When I did computers for the local hospital, I had to remove
all power strips and extension cords from the ER computer are. Metal
power strips were deemed acceptable, but only if they were NOT sitting
on the floor. The action was apparently inspired by this notice:
<http://www.cpsc.gov/cpscpub/prerel/prhtml99/99069.html>
I replaced them with a surface mount conventional power outlet, in a
metal box. However, the wall warts would fall out of the boxes in any
position other than horizontal, which required that the box be placed
on the floor. It could be done worse:
<http://www.instructables.com/id/STRDG5EF8Y3RMWY/>
Someone else negotiated a compromise with the fire department, which
agreed to tolerate floor mounted power strips, but only if in metal
boxes and in locations where one could not step on top of the
inevitable tangle. This is close to my understanding of common
hospital practice:
<http://www.mdsr.ecri.org/summary/detail.aspx?doc_id=8280>
It's probably also good advice for home use of power strips.

I've seen a few small fires that originated in plastic power strips
that have built in surge protectors. The local power utility goes
overvoltage for longer than the MOV (metal oxide varistor) can handle.
It catches fire and melts the plastic.
<http://www.westwhitelandfire.com/Articles/Surge%20Protectors.pdf>
I still use power strips, but only those that do NOT contain a surge
protector. If want surge protection, I use metal power strips.

>Do you also stand on hilltops in a thunderstorm, waving a sword, wearing
>copper armour and shouting "all the gods are barstewards" ? :-)

Nope. However, I have done battle with the local fire dept electrical
safety inspector and county planning department, which are just as
dangerous.


--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

Mark McIntyre
07-29-08, 05:19 PM
Char Jackson wrote:
> On Mon, 28 Jul 2008 22:23:08 +0100, Mark McIntyre
> <markmcintyre@TROUSERSspamcop.net> wrote:
>
>> Char Jackson wrote:
>>> On Sun, 27 Jul 2008 14:34:16 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>> <http://802.11junk.com/jeffl/pics/drivel/slides/wall-wart-01.html>
>> Yikes! This photo qualifies for the "never never never do this"
>> electrical safety manual. Do you really run stuff like that? And live in
>> a timber house in the middle of the woods? Egad!
>>
>> Do you also stand on hilltops in a thunderstorm, waving a sword, wearing
>> copper armour and shouting "all the gods are barstewards" ? :-)
>
> You quoted me, but I think your comments are addressed to Jeff. :)

Actually, I /replied/ to you, but quoted Jeff - hemce the Jeff Wrote bit
above... :-)

> Still, I don't see too much wrong with the wall wart pic. It's not
> like the outlet is overloaded or anything.

Each wallwart generates a lot of heat. All that heat is going into the
little risers....

> I use those 12" extensions here, but the result is about the same.

more air-flow round the units.


--
Mark McIntyre

CLC FAQ <http://c-faq.com/>
CLC readme: <http://www.ungerhu.com/jxh/clc.welcome.txt>

Mark McIntyre
07-29-08, 05:30 PM
Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>
> I created a huge arguement over the legality and safety of such an
> arrangement and power strips in general.

If you had such an arrangement in the UK and you had a house fire then
your insurance wouldn't pay out (even if the fire was due to something
else I suspect). Plus if you did it in a commercial capacity you'd
almost certainly get ticked off under health & safety rules.

> Short summary: Strictly
> speaking, there's nothing in the NFPA electrical code that prevents
> doing that for home use.

In the UK, we have new and exciting rules about electrical safety. For
instance its now disallowed to do more than minor repairs and to do
anything at all in the bathroom, kitchen or outdoors unless you're a
qualified electrician, while all work has to be certificated by one of
the trade organizations (and no Jeff, your homemade jobby won't do!).

Otherwise when the time comes to sell your house - you won't, not until
you've paid £££££ for a full electrical systems test.

> Nope. However, I have done battle with the local fire dept electrical
> safety inspector and county planning department, which are just as
> dangerous.

And just as wilful and unpredictable. :-)

--
Mark McIntyre

CLC FAQ <http://c-faq.com/>
CLC readme: <http://www.ungerhu.com/jxh/clc.welcome.txt>

Bob Smith
07-30-08, 01:51 AM
On Sun, 27 Jul 2008 14:34:16 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>
wrote:

Gad Jeff, as long as I've been reading this newsgroup (about 8 years)
your posts are my delight,

you always come up with a good suggestion and the damnest pictures
i've ever seen,

keep up the good work

as to power strips and wal warts, I've had about 30 clients last
winter get new PC's , new TV's and new Refrigerators because of PG&E's
'loose neutral' problem on the north coast,

They had about 6 miles of poles loose the neutral to homes and flat
burnt out everything connected to the AC mains.

oh well , it was money in my pocket also

see ya next time

Bob Smith
Robert Smith Consulting
ARS NA6T
Fort Bragg, California



>On Sun, 27 Jul 2008 16:24:03 -0500, Char Jackson <none@none.invalid>
>wrote:
>
>>On Sun, 10 Feb 2008 23:31:16 +0000, Mark McIntyre
>><markmcintyre@spamcop.net> wrote:
>>
>>>Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>>>
>>>> Incidentally, the secret to successfully interconnecting a mess of
>>>> consumer networking boxes is to use very flexible stranded CAT5
>>>> interconnection cable. The modem and wireless boxes are so light,
>>>> that they slide around on a shelf. The stiff CAT5 wire makes stacking
>>>> boxes difficult, but stranded works nicely.
>>>
>>>I wallmounted all mine and used custom-made cabling cut to length.
>>
>>[old thread alert]
>
>Yeah, 5 months later.
>
>>By chance, do you have a picture of your wall full of networking
>>items, with custom cabling? That's gotta be a bit bizarre and not
>>entirely wife-approved, or at least it wouldn't be in my house. :-)
>
>For some Linksys devices, see wall mount at:
><http://www.linksys.com/servlet/Satellite?c=L_Product_C2&childpagename=US%2FLayout&cid=1115416908686&pagename=Linksys%2FCommon%2FVisitorWrapper>
>$25 for 10 of them.
>
>Neatness counts:
><http://802.11junk.com/jeffl/pics/drivel/slides/mess01.html>
><http://802.11junk.com/jeffl/pics/drivel/slides/wall-wart-01.html>
>
>Cut to length wiring is a good idea:
><http://802.11junk.com/jeffl/pics/Beirut-Telco/slides/beirut-telco-03.html>

Jeff Liebermann
07-30-08, 01:38 PM
On Tue, 29 Jul 2008 23:51:08 -0700, Bob Smith <na6t@na6t.com> wrote:

>Gad Jeff, as long as I've been reading this newsgroup (about 8 years)
>your posts are my delight,

Thanks.

>as to power strips and wal warts, I've had about 30 clients last
>winter get new PC's , new TV's and new Refrigerators because of PG&E's
>'loose neutral' problem on the north coast,
>
>They had about 6 miles of poles loose the neutral to homes and flat
>burnt out everything connected to the AC mains.

Dropping the neutral usually doesn't destroy everything unless the
loads were severely unbalanced between the two phases. I'm rather
suprised at the damage.

We had that happen after the earthquake in 1989. 80VAC on one phase.
160VAC on the other. Fortunately, it wasn't high enough to set the
surge protectors on fire. The bad part is that despite numerous
electricians and experts yelling at PG&E that it was a ground problem,
they went through considerable expense and effort to fix everything
EXCEPT the missing neutral/grounding. It seems that it's their fault
if they admit that it's a floating neutral due to safety issues. I
know of one building, where the electrician very carefully moved
breakers around, to blance the load equally on both phases. Several
offices had two voltmeters (one per phase) and were told to turn
things on and off until the voltage were roughly equal. It worked.

>oh well , it was money in my pocket also

PG&E dropped a 12KV line on top of a 117v drop in the area. When the
smoke cleared (literally), the damage claims totalled $50,000. I
think they paid out about $10,000. I didn't get anything.

Whole house GRI (ground fault interrupters) allegedly work well at
disconnecting the house in case of power oddities. I don't have one
but I'm seriously considering installing one.


--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

Jeff Liebermann
07-30-08, 01:44 PM
On Tue, 29 Jul 2008 23:30:09 +0100, Mark McIntyre
<markmcintyre@TROUSERSspamcop.net> wrote:

>If you had such an arrangement in the UK and you had a house fire then
>your insurance wouldn't pay out (even if the fire was due to something
>else I suspect). Plus if you did it in a commercial capacity you'd
>almost certainly get ticked off under health & safety rules.

We're not there yet, but the insurance companies are getting nasty
about code violations. At this time, anything over $500 requires a
building permit. Since much of my house is built without benefit of
the county beaurocracy, I thought I might have a problem. So, I asked
my insurance agent (State Farm Ins) who inidicated that unless there
is an indication that a fire was intentionally started, they'll pay.

>In the UK, we have new and exciting rules about electrical safety. For
>instance its now disallowed to do more than minor repairs and to do
>anything at all in the bathroom, kitchen or outdoors unless you're a
>qualified electrician, while all work has to be certificated by one of
>the trade organizations (and no Jeff, your homemade jobby won't do!).

Yep. We're all apparently heading for government control over every
aspect of our lives. I'm fairly sure your local government will not
bother to take responsibility for any of their own decisions in the
manner of home repairs and remodelling. I've been there.

Thanks for reminding me why I like living in the wild west.

>Otherwise when the time comes to sell your house - you won't, not until
>you've paid £££££ for a full electrical systems test.

We have a little bit of that now. There are some things that are
requuired before a house can be sold. For large remodels, it's a fire
sprinkler system. For saving water, a 1.6gal flush toilet. Also,
some minor plumbing issues (anti back flow, cleanouts, marked hydrant,
fire access, insulation, etc).

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558