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Violent
07-05-00, 09:13 PM
Hi folks ,,,i'm kind of new here and I saw an interesting post that I would like to comment on please, if thats ok ?

I just learned today from my lawyer that I was not going to be prosecuted by Road Runner for uncapping my modem. Yep you heard it right.

the story goes like this :

A few months ago I found a way to uncap my motorola cable modem. I had heard that it was impossible to do as everything was handled at the head end. Well this is true it is all handeled at the head end, however there is a hidden diagnostic mode in the motorola modem that motorola can access from on line if need be. In this diagnostic mode there is a setting that allows the motorola people to over ride any control from outside the modem - it however does this constantly in this special mode and allows proper modem functioning at the same time. Motorola accesses this mode thru a telnet type session. this session can be captured if you sniff the session with network software designed for this. this capture takes a little decoding but gives up the codes needed to turn this diagnostic mode on. I discovered this by accident when I called motorola tech support for a problem with something else. I just happened to mention to the tech that was helping me that "my other computer was on line with a cable motorola cable modem. While he was waiting for something else we had a short conversation , he asked "Hows that modem working for you, I have one too." I said It works ok I guess but...",,,he said "I can take a look at it for you if you want", I said No , I'll have to send it to you guys, besides it really belongs to the cable company." He said " Oh no, I can look at it from here. " . Of course I get this erie feeling but say ok. I have a home network and just happen to have been running some software that sniffs the network while doing some testing. So I have the sniffer running and he takes a look at the modem. Said he didn't see anything wrong. I get my other problem solved with motorola and say good by and thanks.
A few days later I get around to looking at the sniffer logs and I see the session from motorola, Now the lightbulb in my brain comes on. I study the log for a good two hours and decide to try a few codes from it. Lo and behold - This thing now d/l's at 1.2 MB sec and uploads at 500 K sec. Previously my d/l's were averaging 500 - 800 k/s which isn't too shabby, but the u/l max was 25 k/sec which is about normal for road runner cable. So anyway I run the cable modem in this special configuration for a couple months. Come home one day to find that i've been disconnected. I call about it and am told that I was disconnected for theft of service and refered to the legal department for further information. So I call legal and am told that they plan to prosecute.

Anyway about a week later I am served with a summons. I call my sister (she's the lawyer) and explain everything to her. Little hint here that I have learned from my sister - always tell your lawyer everything. Anyway she contacts Road Runner, they will not drop the prosecution they say because they feel that I should be made an example. I get to court. My sister makes the argument that the road runner literature that was used to sell the service , which becomes part of the contract, points out the "speeds up to..." statement as a selling point, that I bought the service, have paid the bill religiously, and was mearly excercising my rights under the original contract when I bought the Road Runner service. Road Runner and prosecutor points out that while the original selling point may have been considered part of the contract that to take something that is not clearly given in the contract is illegal and constitutes theft of service. case is continued while the judge ponders this.

Went back to court today and got the judges decision - Ruling : Not Guilty

Road Runner objected - prosecutor objected - Why ?

Judge says " The defendant excercised his rights under the contract as implied by the literature used to sell the service, and the literature that sold the service became part of the contract. While the literature does not specify any certain speed it also does not specify any certain limit other than the one theoricaly possible. The defendant did nothing but attempt to utilize the full extent of the service that he was sold. This does not constitute theft. Not Guilty. the defendant is released."

The judge then ordered Road Runner to turn the service back on. Road Runner refused, but this afternoon my service was back on when I got home after court, and i'm running again un-capped.

End of story - happy ending http://www.speedguide.net/ubb/smile.gif

So the moral of the story is this : If you run un-capped they will probably arrest you. But there is a way to beat it. Plain and simple I guess, Kids - dont try this at home, cause it is a big hassle.

P.S. Forgot this part. I did get arrested when I got the summons - kinda embarrasing- had to post bail. Only time in my life that I have ever talked with a police officer other than a traffic ticket.

[This message has been edited by Violent (edited 07-05-2000).]

[This message has been edited by Violent (edited 07-05-2000).]

Lex Luthor
07-05-00, 09:16 PM
Yeah, that really sounds worth it to get a little extra bandwidth.

Smart move.

Lex

TDBerry
07-05-00, 10:00 PM
That is a wild story. I wish I had that to tell at thanksgiving myself. I do agree the contracts are ussally a little "broad" ( thus the term broadband) I am looking forward to the future of internet speed...52" monitors 1GBps both ways 25 zigabyte HD...

vegasbill
07-05-00, 10:03 PM
That was only one Judge, a lower court ruling and I might not be so lucky. The law is based upon the PRUDENT man rule,and some judge might not feel that MY uncapping was prudent. My paperwork might not match yours.
I am very sure their lawyers are rewritting agreements this night! Now, what happens if they appeal? Your sister bless her, will have to now lose money to defend you again. Since I guess your case was for free? I am very willing to bet they will appeal this case to a higher court.With a restrainting order relieve, asking for you to cease.
By the way,where the cops nice to you?

------------------
Let It Ride !

Iceman
07-05-00, 11:21 PM
yo violent, mind letting me take a look at your sniffer log? if u dont wanna post, email to icemam16@rocketmail.com


------------------
Ice--who could have thought of a better invention?

fanta
07-05-00, 11:55 PM
Interesting story. Maybe it can be put up on the stories section of this site? BTW, why did you un-cap your modem? Was it for the purpose of running a server? or just because you had the "need for speed?" It would be interesting to see the sniffer logs but then again it could be a pandoras box that maybe should be best kept a secret.

Bouncer
07-05-00, 11:58 PM
Interesting story.

I wonder how broadly it applies though. I'm curious because the RR service I have has no specific contract. It's an "at will" service. Which means I can terminate the service at any time for any or no reason. And so can they.

I'm also curious as to why you called motorola tech support and why they didn't refer you back to RR. Finally I'm surprised that they didn't disconnect you for violation of the TOS, since most RR sites specifically prohibit use of packet sniffing software.

I guess I wouldn't be surprised if they decided to stop serving you in the not too distant future. I also wonder how much you would've paid in legal fees for another lawyer to handle your case.

Regards,
-Bouncer-

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"Yeah Baby, YEAH!!!"

jmcoreymv
07-06-00, 12:21 AM
Hey Violent, you mind if i take a look at those sniffer logs? Email me at jmcoreymv@hotmail.com

Kip Patterson
07-06-00, 02:18 AM
Now, let's think about this a bit.

1) His packet sniffer can only see data that passes through the modem. Can't see what's on the cable side. So these special codes must be passed through the modem? Addressed to what port in the TCP/IP stack? The codes that you create get passed to the modem how?

2) Motorola modems are not capped. The flow to them is regulated by the Motorola headend.

3) This is "Violent"'s first posting to the board.

4) The legal department does not decide to prosecute. They file a criminal complaint and the local prosecutor decides to prosecute. Having filed a complaint, they shut up because it is a felony to use criminal charges to pursue a civil issue - this dates from the elimination of debtor's prisons.

5) The judge waits a day to issue a decision in a theft of service case?

6) An attorney allows this to be heard by a judge, not a jury?

7) A judge in a criminal case issues an order for a civil remedy?

Horsefeathers!

Post your name and the court in which this happened, and case number, please.

[This message has been edited by Kip Patterson (edited 07-06-2000).]

wee96
07-06-00, 11:10 AM
You really expect him to post his name, Mr. 40 posts? Heh, you haven't been here all that long either, dont flame him. He's probably got a real interesting case here that we could all benefit from, or then again you could be right and he's full of mule dung.

Violent
07-06-00, 11:20 AM
Yes the police were very nice - they did not even cuff me.


Originally posted by Iceman:
yo violent, mind letting me take a look at your sniffer log? if u dont wanna post, email to icemam16@rocketmail.com

Iceman
07-06-00, 11:27 AM
LOL! Whoa that sure is one helluva typo---lol heres the real one

iceman16@rocketmail.com

thanks

------------------
Ice--who could have thought of a better invention?

Kip Patterson
07-06-00, 11:30 AM
Yes, I do expect him to post his real name. I use mine in this and every forum I visit. If he really appeared in court (He says at one point he did and was found innocent, at another point that he was not prosecuted) it is a matter of public record.

I did not flame him, other than horsefeathers. He asserted several things not consistent with the law or with court practice. Read carefully what is said "Roadrunner objected" - how? they cannot have any standing in this case, cannot have an attorney present to object.

500k uploads? The entire channel bandwidth is 191k for a Motorola modem.

wee96
07-06-00, 01:02 PM
Got me on that one http://www.speedguide.net/ubb/wink.gif

Violent
07-06-00, 01:15 PM
Mr patterson, Sir:

1)I was sniffing my internal network configuration (router - hub -switches etc..) this is not a violation of the agreement as long as i do not sniff beyound the cable modem. Evidently you do not realize that your cable modem activity is passed thru your NIC which is part of ---come on now---right! you guessed it, your internal network! Why ? because its on the computer side of the modem. A problem with the switch - hub - router combo was the reason for the call to motorola. You are correct (and I think I stated this in my original post) that the speed is capped at the headend. but someway or another these codes allowed the modem to ignor the head end. BTW the way the speed is capped is by command from the headend to the modem, this is the reason that some u/l's will start off fast then immediately settle down to what the head end wants you to have. I do not know how these codes work, they just did.

2) this was a criminal matter and was tried as such . In my state I can choose to waive a trial by jury which I did and can also choose to have the trial immdiately before the arraignment judge , which I did.

3) This one is just a side not: had you done your homework you would have found out that there is still one state in which it is legal to imprison a person for debts. that state is Louisianna. Their state law is based upon the napoleonic code , not the codified code accepted by the other 49 states. Also indentured servitude is still legal in Louisianna tho it is not practiced because of the constitution.I'm not in Louisianna but I lived down there long enough to know this.

4) Any judge in my state can issue an order to restore property to its righful owner. In effect you are renting the cable service, but state law requires the "land lord" (road runner) notify the renter before he enters the property. he does not need permission he just has to notify. Since the contract requires that Road Runner (time Warner) owns the service then in effect you are renting. They did not notify me before depriving me of items ,I had already paid for, as required by law. Also their case was without foundation because they deprived me of property without cause (constitution)because of this.

5)As a side note here: it is not a felony to use a civil case to pursue a criminal charge. It is introduced as evidence as sworn testimony and vice versa. Case in point - OJ simpsons trial, while they did the criminal first, the opposite could have been true - depends on the state.

6) because I had waived my right to trial by jury the court system in my state is required to wait 24 hours before rendering a decision. This is why the judge waited a day to give his decision.

7) The case can not be appealed because there was no foundation. You need a foundation in law to appeal.

8) in a criminal case in my state the "victims" have a right to object to rulings. The victim here was Road Runner. the original complaintant can also choose not to pursue prosecution and 99% of the time the prosecutors office goes along with it because they know that without the complaintant there is no case.

So the long and short of it is this; under law I was deprived of my rightful property without due process (because the charge was without foundation). The only contract that is valid is the one I originally signed, The contract changes and service agreement changes that came after do not apply because I never signed them as required that I must do before they are valid under state law. As a result I mearly excercised my rights under a valid contract to use the service that I was sold to its fullest potential.

Now, this is sort of a abridged version, I will not go into it any more but I am considering a lawsuit against them for wrongful prosecution, depriving me of my rightful property without due process (because I was renting it I have a rightful property interest), publicly humilliating me by having me arrested. Defamation of character. Two of these are criminal matters but can be tried under civil law because they involve civil right issues.

Thanks for your response. You must work for a cable company or something. remember if you do - its not your money its theirs so why should you sweat it. Also- am I stealing something ? Nope I dont think so right now because while i did not origionally know that using these codes would uncap the thing, I will continue to use them and still do today (and they know it and dont do anything about it now because they cant - bet they will not make it public either because

1> the asswholes could have contacted me and let me know they wre displeased. I would have stopped it in a "Good Neighbor" sort of way. But do they do this ,,,NOPE! they have to have me arrested just to set an example. Wrong way to do things regardless of what you may think.

2> they broke the law by doing it the way they did. I am also going to contact the DA's office to find out why they pursued this matter when it was a clear violation of the law to do so.

3> according to the contract and my states laws - I did nothing illegal. Morally I did nothing wrong because ,,,I paid for it!

ExarKun
07-06-00, 01:31 PM
Violent
Fantastic job! , Im glad someone beat the system again .. its been way to long, since that has been done.

flurry
07-06-00, 02:35 PM
wow
could i please see the log too

wk@one.true-god.org

good job, violent

i have motorola cybsurfr cable with 50KB/s down and 16KB/s upload caps

flurry
07-06-00, 02:39 PM
my speed caps are liking having a wedding ring around your genitals

Violent
07-06-00, 02:55 PM
Uhhh,,,you did not read correctly I guess.

the whole channel bandwidth for a motorola cable modem I do not know right off, per motorolas specs for this particular modem the speed is capable of up to 27 MB/s. The speed is limited at - you guessed it- the head end. No cable company in their right mind or in their technical capacity has the equipment or technology available to give each user 27 Mb/s. bandwidth is mearly a function of how big a pipe is, it does not determine how fast you move thru the pipe. Like a 4 lane highway may be 4 lanes wide but other then traffic - the condition of your vehicle - posted speed limit -etc... is there anything that limits how fast you travel on it? bandwidth and speed are two different things. I think you are incorrect on the bandwidth limit, and i'm not even going to look it up, but even if it is 191k, it is still capable of letting the traffic pass thru it at any attainable speed unhindered that is by other objects. people always confuse bandwidth with speed, they are two different items, bandwidth defines how big something is, speed determins how fast something moves thru it. I never said I changed the bandwidth, I said that the speed increased. case in point, a 56 K isdn connection moves data slower then a 56 K frame relay setup. Same bandwidth but the speed is different - think about it.

And no I am not going to post my real name. It is not a real wise move in this day and age. As far as you knowing the details of the what where and when, its none of your business. If you'd learn to do your homework properly, you would have already found it. It is a matter of public record. Every thing I posted is consistant with the laws in my state. Oh you studied law, well you wasted your money because you have been wrong in every assumption because one of the first things they teach you in law school is not to assume.


Originally posted by Kip Patterson:
Yes, I do expect him to post his real name. I use mine in this and every forum I visit. If he really appeared in court (He says at one point he did and was found innocent, at another point that he was not prosecuted) it is a matter of public record.

I did not flame him, other than horsefeathers. He asserted several things not consistent with the law or with court practice. Read carefully what is said "Roadrunner objected" - how? they cannot have any standing in this case, cannot have an attorney present to object.

500k uploads? The entire channel bandwidth is 191k for a Motorola modem.



[This message has been edited by Violent (edited 07-06-2000).]

mithraug
07-06-00, 03:10 PM
Well, since everyone else is asking I figured I might as well also. Could you send me a copy of those logs as well. My ICQ number is 66460285.

I am using the Motorola Cybersurfer on AT&T@home in CA. I am thoroughly sick of that stupid upload cap. Especially since it means when the U/L is at max, the D/L is at minimum. Thanks a lot.

Kip Patterson
07-06-00, 03:16 PM
Let's stick with one unit of measure. You said in your initial message that you achieved speeds of:
"This thing now d/l's at 1.2 MB sec and uploads at 500 K sec."

I take that to be bytes. The capacity of the cable channel to which the modem is connected is 27 mbits, shared among all modems on that transmitter in the head end. Each individual user can potentially get 10 megabits, or 1.25 megabytes including overhead. I've never seen a 10 mb ethernet network at anything like 1.2 mbytes.

The upstream channel is 1.536 megabits, again, shared among all modems on that receiver in the head end. That's 191 kbytes.

The upstream channel differs from the downstream channel in that it is polled. All active users are permitted to transmit in rotation, so it is difficult in the face of traffic to get a large percentage of the upstream bandwidth.

The manuals for the system are available at:
http://www.mot.com/MIMS/Multimedia/manuals/index.html

As you will note, the downstream flow is managed actively by the headend, not the modem. You cannot do anything to the modem to overcome the limits set by the head end.

Violent
07-06-00, 06:13 PM
This what you trying to say ?:

CyberSURFR Specifications.
Interfaces:
10BaseT Ethernet Connector
HFC Drop Connector: Female "F" Type

RF Specifications:
Transmitter
Bandwidth: 600 kHz
Data Signaling Rate: 768 kbps
Symbol Rate: 384 ksym/sec
Modulation: pi/4-DQPSK
Transmit Frequency Range: 6 MHz - 42 MHz w/dynamic frequency agility
Input Impedance: 75 Ohms (nominally)
Dynamic Range: 24 - 55 dBmV

Receiver
Bandwidth: 6 MHz
Data Signaling Rate: 30 Mbps
Symbol Rate: 5 Msym/sec
Modulation: 64 QAM
Receive Frequency Range: 65 - 750 MHz w/frequency selectable
Channel Plans: Standard, IRC, HRC
Input Impedance: 75 Ohms (nominally)
Minimum CNR (at receiver): 30 dB
Sensitivity: +5 to -15 dBmV
Group Delay Tolerance: 130 nS

Physical and Environmental
Dimensions: 2 1/2" x 6 5/8" x 9.6"
Weight: 2.8 lbs. (1.3 kgs)
Front Panel LEDs: Power, Test, Cable, PC
Rear Panel Connectors/Controls:
Cable Type F connector
Reset Button
EIA 232 25-pin port - reserved
RJ45 PC/hub connector
Power connection (DIN connector)
Universal Power Supply 100 to 250 VAC, 47 to 63 Hz

Operating Temperature: 0o C to +40o C (+32o F to +104o F)
Safety Specifications: UL 1950; CSA C22.2 No.950; IEC 950; EN 60950; AS/NZS 3260
Emissions: FCC Part 15, Class B; CISPR 22, Class B; EN 55022, Class B; AS/NZ 3548, Class B.
Immunity: EN 50082-1.

I

jayyy
07-06-00, 06:20 PM
I can think of an easier way to resolve whether or not he's telling the truth, Kip -why don't you just have him email you the bloody sniff logs and try it yourself? Or keep tabs on a user here that tries it that you trust?

Kip Patterson
07-06-00, 06:40 PM
Those are the modem specs, for one of the models. There's a newer one, the Cybersurfr wave, which is 37 down 1.53 up.

There are alos manuals for the headend that explain how the caps are implemented, among other things.

The_Sandman
07-06-00, 08:03 PM
Violent send me the logs as well.
DarkChylde19@hotmail.com

Violent
07-06-00, 10:06 PM
check this Kip :
http://www.midsouth.rr.com/rr_new/index.html

click on the "How does it work" link on the left. I thought they had done away with this page but they havent.

hmmm,,,notice near the top of the page:

"The modems are technically capable of throughput speeds of 8 to 27 Mb/s in the downstream path and the upstream path ranges from 1 - 3 Mb/s. "

Road runners own words - not my part of the Road Runner network,,,but this is how they sold it to me. Of course this is the only road runner page I could find with this type of information that is still up after this little fiasco. If ya find more let me know. The original (older type) of the Motorola cable modems were capable of this. I have one of these. The newer ones do not have this capability any more but are limited to 10Mb/s - period - so you were right about the 10 Mb/s but you assumed that I had the same modem everyone else did. I have an older modem, one of the first cybersufr cable modems, the older modems are the ones that are capable of greater then 10 Mb/s - and mine is. This information was also listed in print in the sales literature when the guy showed up at my door to sell me the service while he was canvasing the neighborhood. So doing a little math and using the maximum "technically capable" speeds mentioned on this page:

27 Mb/s = 2.7 Mb/s download (i'm getting 1.2 Mb/s after motorola codes)

3 Mb/s - 300 kb/s upload (but i'm getting 500 K - I dont know why -I just am after motorola codes)

Oh yeah I do not use a 10 Mb Nic like you assumed, I swapped it out for a 100 Mb 3 Com NIC.

So once again, I dont know how it works or why it works - it just does. I think I will spread the codes around a bit - maybe.

Oh well - I am thru with this subject.

BuhBye http://www.speedguide.net/ubb/smile.gif



Originally posted by Kip Patterson:
Those are the modem specs, for one of the models. There's a newer one, the Cybersurfr wave, which is 37 down 1.53 up.

There are alos manuals for the headend that explain how the caps are implemented, among other things.



[This message has been edited by Violent (edited 07-11-2000).]

NeoGuyver
07-07-00, 12:20 AM
Ooh, me too http://www.speedguide.net/ubb/smile.gif Can you send me the logs?
Mega_manx4@hotmail.com

Thank you VERY much http://www.speedguide.net/ubb/smile.gif

NeoGuyver
07-07-00, 12:31 AM
Ooh, me too http://www.speedguide.net/ubb/smile.gif Can you send me the logs?
Mega_manx4@hotmail.com

Thank you VERY much http://www.speedguide.net/ubb/smile.gif

NeoGuyver
07-07-00, 12:33 AM
What the Heck?! I didn't post that twice!

Bouncer
07-07-00, 12:47 AM
I'm curious.

Is this download upload speed local to your cable company, or your throughput from other sites?

Functionally what you did was alter your modem to communicate using a wider data path to the headend equipment. Probably by resetting the modem to default factory settings. I sincerely suspect they will terminate your agreement in the not too distant future. By that I mean your altered device is now interacting with their equipment in a way they did not set it up to do. The possible damage this may cause to their equipment on their end could possibly fall back on you since you have deliberately altered your device to operate in a way different than the specifications they provided to it. You are of course, free to run your own cable, to your own headend and buy your own connections to other places.

In addition, if this throughput rate is from other sites, then you are DEFINATELY affecting devices beyond the headend in their system, and they will likely shut you down.

Regards,
-Bouncer-

------------------
"Yeah Baby, YEAH!!!"



[This message has been edited by Bouncer (edited 07-07-2000).]

Violent
07-07-00, 09:39 AM
Bouncer :
This is up and down speeds from the local cable company. I have on fast FTP sites enjoyed 900 k/s plus , with around 800 - 900 k/s being more of a norm for downloads and with averaging around 400 k/s upload on these sites. One site in particular that I get great speed on is ftp.amoco.com - i use this site for testing and routinely get 900 k/s plus down and 500k/s up from it (after the motorola codes)- but this is only with fast uncrowded sites. Of course you know that when you began to look at the net from outside your own domain or network there is too much stuff you need to go thru - slow servers - multiple routers and the like and of course this has an effect on what speeds you end up with - but alas those thinge we can not control.

Before the motorola codes the down speed wasn't all that bad but the up speed sucked. The biggest change here I guess I would have to say , with the codes,is the upload side.

"...altered your device to operate in a way different than the specifications they provided to it."

Well the specifications they sold me are outlined on one of their web pages (look up a few replies in this thread) and I am well within those specifications - and per the judge - legally as well.

You see in my state the cable company does not really decide what they want to do. We have a Public Service Commission which is very active. The cable company is considered a utility and is regulated by the Public Service Commission which will not allow them to remove service without cause , so they can not just disconnect you for no reason. They also are required by law to provide service on demand. So If the court says that i'm operating legally and the judge ordered them to turn it back on, then there is no cause , unless I do not pay the bill or something like that. Even if they do decide to terminate for some reason or other, I will just re-order it and have it re-installed because the law states that as a utility they must provide service on demand -in other words they can not refuse you service as long as you can pay for it.

Philip
07-07-00, 09:48 AM
Interesting... I'd like to look at those logs too. philip@speedguide.net

DIDS
07-07-00, 11:51 AM
Hi Violent,

If possible can I get a copy of those logs?


Thanks,

DIDS



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It Can't Rain All The Time
- Eric Draven (The Crow)

-------------------------

DIDS
07-07-00, 11:53 AM
My e-mail is dids_m@hotmail.com

cableman
07-07-00, 01:38 PM
hi, i wanted to see those codes too =) my email is: sipsi@goplay.com

Lex Luthor
07-07-00, 01:56 PM
Violent,

You sure are a glutten for punishment, huh?

Out of curiousity, I went to ftp.amoco.com

Looks like they don't want anyone there! check this out! Yikes! Just from typing ftp.amoco.com, they are going to report me?

FTP root at ftp.amoco.com

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

You are connected to Amoco's ftp server
ftp.amoco.com


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

06/29/2000 12:55AM Directory 05-31-00 11:49AM -= Your IP Addresses have all been LOGGED and your ISPs will be contacted =-


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Bouncer
07-07-00, 01:58 PM
Two things you may want to be aware of:

"...altered your device to operate in a way different than the specifications they provided to it."

"Well the specifications they sold me are outlined on one of their web pages (look up a few replies in this thread) and I am well within those specifications - and per the judge - legally as well."

I did look before I asked. It's specifies a 768kbps (96KBps) return path, but you're utilizing 4mbps (500KBps).

If you altered the amplitude settings at all then you definately altered the device in a way that it interacts with the cable headend. Period. No doubt about it. You are using more or a different frequencies then they assigned to your device, and you may (theoretically at least) damage the equipment at their end by doing so. I doubt it's in your service agreement that you're allowed to damage their equipment or interrupt their operations or service to other users.

"You see in my state the cable company does not really decide what they want to do. We have a Public Service Commission which is very active. The cable company is considered a utility and is regulated by the Public Service Commission which will not allow them to remove service without cause"

(rest snipped for brevity)

You better hold onto that, because no offense, the FCC is VERY likely to say it ISN'T a locally regulated utility. It's a nice argument, and I understand your point. You must also understand that at least TWO FEDERAL COURTS have already ruled that local jurisdictions have NO, ZERO, regulatory authority over cable in this regard.

Specifically, the argument applies to the open access mandates, but the point is still that communities cannot treat data access the way they treat cable TV. It is going to be handled more like a telecomm service. Which means local authorities cannot demand open access, but neither can they demand "service on demand", because they can't demand *anything* when it comes to data transmission (as opposed to One way TV transmission).

Be careful not to apply cable TV standards, to DATA access. They are two entirely different things in the eyes of the Federal Courts.

I'm not trying to rain on your parade, but that's definately the direction things are going in. One wonders what the courts reaction would be if you had open access, and your frequency altering for instance meant you were using upload frequencies sold or leased to OTHER ISPs and their customers. You see the point I'm sure.

To be fair, RR may let you get away with it because it might be easier not to bother. OTOH, they may fight you to the bitter end, because corporations do that too, especially if they think it's something a lot of people can start doing to alter the behaviour of equipment on their end and disrupt service to other users. You cannot not know by this point that your "alterations" are in fact taking more of the available spectrum and thus making the upload or return service unavailable for other folks who did, in fact, ALSO pay for a theoretical maximum which they can no longer EVER reach because of YOUR alterations to YOUR device. So you are now impacting the other users of the service in your area.

Their most likely course of action is to deny service because the modem is "damaged". That is, in their view, it is not operating within the specifications originally programmed into it by them. Therefore it is damaged, just as if it had been struck by come sort of EMI burst, and was using all new frequencies not programmed into it by them. They will of course restore service, but not to a damaged device.

Again, I think you're in for a longer fight for a couple of reasons. They will probably monitor all your usage for a month or two, and then cut you off, and say "See you in court".

Best of Luck,
-Bouncer-

------------------
"Yeah Baby, YEAH!!!"

ChromaZone
07-07-00, 02:01 PM
Hey Violent!

Great arguments!

p.s. Think i can get a peak at those logs also, would be greatly appreciated?

snoopyluke@hotmail.com

Cheers
ChromaZone


[This message has been edited by ChromaZone (edited 07-07-2000).]

wee96
07-07-00, 02:08 PM
wee96@hotmail.com

pass me the pill! heheh, no really I'd like to take a look as well (as everyone else has been wanting to). Sounds very interesting.

iBringPain
07-07-00, 03:16 PM
Violent, nice job standing up for your rights. I am suprised RR attempted to charge you with a felony (what was the dollar figure?) if I read your post correctly for theft of services. I am no legale begale but I would think it would have been a better move to go to civil court for a judgement of loss revenue from your home. I am not questioning anything you wrote I am just trying to understand it better. It is my understanding Most Motorola modems are uncapped up/down to begin with so I do not believe your system will cause any damage to RR system and I bet the tech guys don;t even care what speed you upload at, problably the only persons who care other than the whinners on this site are the attorneys who are billing RR at $400 a hour. Again nice victory....

fanta
07-07-00, 04:26 PM
Yikes thats a lot of e-mails to respond to. Why dont you just give them to Phillip and ask him to post them on the site in addition to your story perhaps?

-syk0
07-07-00, 05:15 PM
since everyone else wants em, u know u know... http://www.speedguide.net/ubb/smile.gif

pah_syk0@hotmail.com

thanx man :P

The_Sandman
07-07-00, 05:15 PM
iBringPain:

problably the only persons who care other than the whinners on this site are the attorneys who are billing RR at $400 a hour.

I'd complain if he was sucking up my bandwith. eg. lets say I'm on the same node as he is if he's downloading at that speed then I'll be struggling just to get the speed advertised even on RR servers.

"the whinners" at least some of them have valid points. I'm sure your opinion would differ if he was sucking up your bandwith and making your connection slower.

Violent:

great win. you were very luck! I'd seek action against RR if I were you for the reasons you stated before. send me those logs I'd like to take a look even though i don't use a motorola modem. darkchylde19@hotmail.com

Violent
07-07-00, 05:55 PM
Bouncer:

Well heck, they changed the page, sorry for the confusion. I knew it would happen soon. Every area with Road Runner has done away with that page. This page was put up during the initial roll out period when I was sold the service and it said just what I told you it said.

As far as the FCC is concerned, They also ruled that states with regulatory commissions for utilities could decide where and when a cable service operated. The fcc's ruling was mostly regarding content which My public service commission has no control over. But as far a utility providing service they most definately have control over that. Yes the FCC ruled that no state could excercise regulatory control over a cable service , but they did not rule that a state could not excercise control over where and when. It was a loop hole purposefully placed in the ruling by the government to satisfy states rights under the constitution. Under states rights the government cannot dictate to the state what will or will not occur ( at least in matters like this), but they can dictate how it will be done. My sister went over all this with me as I am not a legal eagle type. This same loop hole is the one that will allow all states to tax internet usage in the near future, some of them may already be doing so - I haven't kept up with it so I don't know if they already do or dont.

As far as consuming more then I am allowed, luck would have it that I saved the original sales material at the time the service was sold to me. It was this material that became part of the contract which presuaded the judge to side with me.

At any rate I agree with your arguments and sincerly appreciate you taking the time to play devils advocate in this regard because just today (about an hour ago) I had a interesting phone call from - yep! you guessed it Road Runner. They (or someone from there - or maybe it was someone from this board that contacted them) evidently monitor your page and made numerous references to this thread. They have offered me a deal, I have not decided on the answer yet. The offered me a large business account free for one year, with full up and down bandwidth of 10 Mb/s each way. This means a steady 1 M/s up and down (or at least theoreticaly). I have to agree on a few things:

1) Not use the codes anymore and turn over to them the information on exactly how I did it , trap the motorola codes and such.

2)Have them replace my cable modem with a new one.

3) Sign a new contract. I bet ya a new contract will be pretty comprehensive.

They also asked that I not reveal the codes to anyone or how to access the motorola diagnostic mode,,,but I told them that that would not be part of the deal. Gotta give them an answer next monday.

Somnething strange they asked was if I used proxy servers to access the internet. Of course I do, my true Ip address is never seen by people.So this tells me that someone was checking up on me, oh well. Dont know whay they would have asked that - strange dont you think ?

Thinking that while 1.2 Mb/s is so close to 1 Mb/s and that 1Mb/s up beats 500 k/s , I am considering it. I dont think I will miss the 200 k/s difference in the down side and would gain in the up side. Also considering that the ratio of users on large business accounts is much better then home users. In my area large business accounts are almost dedicated accounts with almost no bandwidth sharing - Nope, I dont know how they do that.

In your opinion do you think this would be a good deal ?

P.S. Who was it that went to ftp.amoco.com ?,,,your right they dont want people there, but I have a account on that server so I have a password and login that allows me access. the admin is a friend of mine, we grew up together. Its a fast site and perfect for testing or storing stuff.

P.S - Again - I just realized that I have caused a minor upset in your board by having such a controversal subject posted. I apologize for distracting your board away from its intended purpose.




[This message has been edited by Violent (edited 07-07-2000).]

clover
07-07-00, 06:08 PM
clover252525@yahoo.com

You have my curiosity going now as well, Violent. At least I'm not in the USA and not subject to their laws. I also perused my contract and funnily, there's no mention about changing the speed of the modem: an oversight I'm sure. Whether that omission makes it legal, I dunno, but doesn't seem to make it illegal. My modem is motorola so I'd be very interested in a copy of those logs.

clover

goose
07-07-00, 06:13 PM
Those folks asking for the log and do happen to receive it from him, won't get off so easy in this case because he did do this with negligence. This plays a huge roll in the manner that he luckily tweaked his cap. If you do this intentionally you may not be so lucky.. Just my $0.02

HMS White Star
07-07-00, 07:21 PM
correction I don't feel like giving my opinion cause it's outdated, sorry.

[This message has been edited by HMS White Star (edited 07-07-2000).]

The_Sandman
07-07-00, 08:39 PM
violent just out of curiosity what proxy software do you use

CRoZZ
07-07-00, 11:02 PM
Thats great Violent..glad to see the small guy take on the big boys on the block. Im to curious on the log could u send it to me aswell crozz@telus.net thx :^)

CBR900RR
07-08-00, 12:36 AM
Hi violent, do you own the cable modem. If not, all they need to do is to swap out you modem with some other brand and you will be stuck with the capped speed. Am I right? Don't tell me your code will work on all different type of modem, he he *.*

DHM
07-08-00, 12:38 AM
Violent,

Bravo excellent Job of defending your rights, Well done.

CBR900RR
07-08-00, 12:45 AM
Hi violent, do you own the cable modem. If not, all they need to do is to swap out you modem with some other brand and you will be stuck with the capped speed. Am I right? Don't tell me your code will work on all different type of modem, he he *.*

martialcomp
07-08-00, 01:12 AM
Violent, I actually feel sorry for you. You have nothing better to do in your life than to hog everyone elses upstream and downstream bandwidth? And, Kip is right, I do not believe you can get 500 kilo bytes per second out of a 1.5 megabit system (183k per second approx). I also agree with Bouncer, you could easily be damaging equipment by doing what you are doing. I also feel that they will most definitely terminate your service soon. They have too, you are slowing your neighbors and everyone else on your node down. I do not understand what makes a person do something like this. The act itself is very selfish. If it had no effect on anyone else, I would be more open to it, but, it effects a lot of other people on your node and could be potentially damaging to the routers at the head end. And, I ask you this, can you handle the guilt of other members of this board getting arrested for doing the same things you have done? Other people might not be so lucky in court, and could pay fines that would take them many years to pay back. If I were you, I would stop messing with the modem, stop promoting illegal activity, and thank god for not getting fined a fortune and not going to jail.

setiawan
07-08-00, 02:27 AM
Violent, i dont know if you agree with the offer yet, but i really like to see the code too, if it all possible, can you send it to azev2000@yahoo.com I really like to check it out....

fanta
07-08-00, 02:34 AM
I might as well ask, as is the whole UBB: sasinator@hotmail.com http://www.speedguide.net/ubb/smile.gif

Xzaver
07-08-00, 02:43 AM
Violent,

I do not think that you realize what you have in your posetion,

I would Think twice (1,000 Times) Before making any deals with RoadRunner.
And Good Luck In your little war you have going on.

I have alot more to say on this subject but I am not going to add wood to this fire.

If you could Pass me the code it would be apriciated.

IAMTHEREX@Favemail.com

------------------
Push Things to there limits.....and eat the results Like candy....You will either get a sweet tooth or a jaw breaker -X z a v e r

Xzaver
07-08-00, 02:47 AM
O just one more thing , Remember this Violent with every decision you make think this over in your head.

RR Has something you do not....
The Never Ending Pocket Book.

fanta
07-08-00, 03:04 AM
Also I would like to add something that suprisingly nobody has mentioned. I suggest that you put your settings back to the normal ones your modem came with for the time being. You should only adjust the settings when you really need to, during off peak times. That way you could get rid of the heat that you already have on you, and you could still get a lot out of your system withought sucking up everyones bandwith at all times. Also I strongly advise in not cutting a deal with Roadrunner. Any deal with them will be at an overall lost to you.

Xzaver
07-08-00, 03:06 AM
ahh ok

[This message has been edited by Xzaver (edited 07-08-2000).]

Bouncer
07-08-00, 03:09 AM
Double-post..remove, redo, repost. Siiigh..
-B-

"Somnething strange they asked was if I used proxy servers to access the internet. Of course I do, my true Ip address is never seen by people. So this tells me that someone was checking up on me, oh well. Dont know whay they would have asked that - strange dont you think?"

I would check your documentation to see whether proxy servers are specifically allowed or prohibited by the TOS you agreed to, or whether it specifies a single direct connection. If they get you on a single contract violation... My point is simply that if you're going to play these kind of games, you better make VERY sure you have ALL your ducks in a row. Because they will likely be looking as closely at you as they can legally get away with. (And that's pretty close)

As to whether you take the deal they offered or not, that is of course, up to you. Their reason for wanting you to not release the information is pretty obvious. It's not so much that they want to repress the information, as much as what they're anticipating is that everyone with that style modem will begin trying this and potentially wreaking havoc with their systems. As someone who worked for a business class ISP (no residential service, no cable modem access, just frame relay, T1's, T3's and up) I can appreciate the concern from an operational standpoint that this could cause if hundreds or thousands of people start trying to mess with systems they do not very specifically understand. functionally, the end result might be that your service was out more than it was on because of other people all playing with frequency settings.

Regards,
-Bouncer-

------------------
"Yeah Baby, YEAH!!!"

wee96
07-08-00, 10:25 AM
Have any of you ACTUALLY received the logs? He hasnt sent them to me, was wondering if he's bluffing.

sklwn
07-08-00, 10:52 AM
Interesting !!

Send me a copy of the log file too. I am not living in US btw.

sklwn@Hotmail.com

thanks

Ezikiel
07-08-00, 01:53 PM
Violent,

I'd get a better deal out of RR than just 1 year.. what happens when your 1 year is up? But do cut a deal. To offer you a deal like that they are obviously very interested in your activities. They will probably not back down and will eventually find a way to legally oust you. Cut a deal before they figure out how to leave you with nothing.

downhill
07-08-00, 02:14 PM
violent
I could easily have missed this, but I was curious too. Someone ask you if you were running a server?
I could find no post if you answered this.

fanta
07-08-00, 02:30 PM
Yeah that was me who asked. He never responded though.

jaza27
07-08-00, 03:56 PM
If these codes came from the motorola tech, then why doesn't RR just contact Motorola and get the codes?

thekingarthur
07-08-00, 04:50 PM
Could i please see the logs as well??
Email them to thekingarthur@yahoo.com

Violent
07-08-00, 06:30 PM
Sorry if I have'nt gotten back. To answer a few questions:

downhill and fanta :I need to explain the proxy serv thing I guess a little more. I am not running a proxy server. They asked me if I used proxy servers. I do use publically available proxy servers to keep my information (IP and the like) from being known. But no I do not run servers of any type.

Why dont they get the codes from motorola ? It isn't that they can't get the codes from motorola, its that they do not want the public at large to have them. Can you imagine how fast this will sweep thru the cable user community? Overnight a lot of systems would come to a stand still. You your self would be competing against others on your own node who have them as well.

Martialcomp : As far as this being criminal - dont think so. At first when I experimented with the codes it was just out of curoisity. I at first did not know what they would do. I just thought that they would allow a look at the inner workings. After messing around with them for a bit and deciphering a bit I discovered that certain settings could be made. I admit that I did continue to use the speed setting thing after I knew what it was, but the way I look at it is that the law tried to nail me for it and the same law let me go and allowed me to continue. There is a law in my state that you can not sell fireworks but you can use them. Right across the state line they can sell fireworks so everyone goes over there during the 4th of july and new years , etc... and buys them and brings them home to the same state that outlaws their sale but not their use. So if people do that (buy them and bring them back into the state) are they breaking the law in their own state by using them ? Even tho the intention of the law against sales of the fireworks is to curb there use, have these people broken the law ? Nope! If you get a speeding ticket and you go to court and the officer that wrote you the ticket does not show up, have you ever had the ticket dismissed (might be different where you live) ? What do you say then - "ooohhh I was really speeding your honor and I am sure that nice policeman did not mean not to show up - throw the book at me sir." No what you do is say thank you and leave - so in the same context as your statements I ask you a question - have you broken the law ?

Why haven't they swapped out the cable modem already ? I do not know - I kinda expected them to show up and do it but they haven't.

Martialcomp : Thankyou for feeling sorry for me. Once again I am not promoting illegal activity, the law said what I did and am doing is perfectly legal. If I were promoting "illegal" activity, my first post here would have been with the codes and implicit instructions on how to use them. I do not know if the post would have been removed or not. It seems everyone is so eager to downcry what they preceive as wrong or illegal or not moral in this world, but thanks for having these feelings for me http://www.speedguide.net/ubb/wink.gif
I feel all warm and fuzzy now http://www.speedguide.net/ubb/wink.gif

fanta : I have to be fair to those around me already decided to set the speed back to it's normal settings. During prime time hours I set the speeds back to the normal "installed roadrunner specified settings using the motorola codes. I started doing this yesterday after Road Runners call.

wee96 : and the rest of you - I have not sent the logs to anyone on this board that has asked for them. I did send the information to a friend of mine to try to see if different modems were affected by them. He has a new motorola cable modem and I wanted to see just what would be affected by these codes. Yes they worked.

TonyT: Thankyou for your response. I agree with you somewhat strangely enough. This is the reason that I have not posted the codes or released them. Not to be greedy. To tell you the truth had Road Runner just given me a phone call or an email asking me not to do it I would have stopped immdediately. But they decided to make a big case out of it and have me arrested and go to lengths (their words) to "make an example" out of me. I am sure that the lawyers that my sister spoke to were trying to be tough but they went too far. Why not just disconnect the service as they do every day for thousands of people across the US for making "illegal" cable drops ? They don't "make an example" out of them. All they had to do is ask. Now they are probebly facing a law suit (haven't decided yet- I have 90 days to file) for wrongful prosecution - false imprisonment - slander - defamnation of character and a whole slew of other things, mostly small ones. When they had me arrested do you know that they called my employer to get my attendance record ? (what for I do not know - I'm on time for work every day - havent missed a day in 18 years). Do you know that they endangered my lively hood ? All they had to do was ask - a simple phone call or email like the many I get every week with them trying to sell me more services - movie channels and the such. Just ask.

Will I release the codes and the instructions ? I dont know yet - plain and simple. If I decide to do that I will email them probably from one of the many free email accounts around the net. Do I want to release them ? Honestly ? Yes I do , But would I be acting responsibly in doing so ? probably not, depends on how much more road runner pisses me off. Would I be promoting an illegal activity ? Not in my state but maybe others. So will I release them ? Honestly right now - I just do not know.

fanta
07-08-00, 07:58 PM
Violent, actually I was refering to file server. Maybe an FTP site or IRC Fserv? Did/Do you run any of these?

Dooms
07-08-00, 08:19 PM
How does one mask their IP?

Pat_1
07-08-00, 09:04 PM
*** Can I Take A Look At These logs too ***

My Email is: pat_123_123@hotmail.com

THANKS ¶:-]

NeoGuyver
07-08-00, 09:21 PM
Just use a Hotmail accound or a zzn acount. http://www.speedguide.net/ubb/wink.gif

John
07-08-00, 10:40 PM
Violent: Email me.

jstoltenborg@home.com



------------------
http://www.speedcorp.net/images/hosted.gif

jaza27
07-08-00, 11:00 PM
But I'm the only one on my node :-)

Taz
07-09-00, 12:07 AM
Violent:

Hmmm...Public Utility Commission in your state. Let's see...Texas? Ummm, fireworks accross the state line...uh, El Paso?

You sure the codes didn't come from someone who works over in the Motorolla maquilla plant in Juarez? Hmmmmm?

Nahh...just foolin' with you about how you came across the codes (but not about your location). I'm sure it went down just as you said.

The arrogance that seeps in and infects certain corporate cultures is appalling. To think all of this could have been avoided with one simple and polite phone call.

I've chronicled my own dealings with Road Runner here myself. In trying to reach a live person in management to talk to about the atrocious customer service I'd received, I FINALLY get an e-mail from the Operations Manager in my region. She invited me to call her to discuss things, which I did.

However, to this date I have not spoken with the woman. Every time I called I would get her voice mail...she never returned my calls, and eventually delegated the task of returning my calls to a tech whose job function was in no way related to the issues at hand.

The only way the ordinary consumer can stand up for fair treatment is to contact the various regulatory bodies and also to go through the courts. But I'm sure my consumer complaints are not even a fly speck on their radar.

Too bad...not saying it's the same thing, but looking back on things now after a hugely expensive class action suit, I'm sure AOL wishes they'd handled things a little differently.

It's amazing how much time, energy, and money is spent by corporations failing to deal with the consumer on a human level. In your case, if the codes end up being circulated on the net, I wonder if Road Runner has calculated just how much money that one phone call would have saved their shareholders. Amazing...

jayyy
07-09-00, 12:13 AM
Hey Violent,
Hold out for 5 years business account on that deal. By then much faster, cheaper services will be avialble, but set yourself up until then. 10 mpbs up and down for a year isn't good enough for a trade secret like that, espec. if said secret gives you close to that anyway.
rememberwee, if he's telling the truth he has every reason not to post the sniff logs yet

TonyT
07-09-00, 12:14 AM
What ever happened to plain old values & honesty? I'm a businessman. A flooring & tile contractor. Been self employed for 24 years. I have seen my share of folks who want " something for nothing". Perolpe who want a service or work done & don't want to pay for it. Those people ALWAYS always end up paying a price for their "criminal think". (the common denominator of all criminality is the idea of getting something for nothing, no exchange)

So this guy got off lucky this time. I don't believe for one minute that prior to his trying out the codes, he didn't have the thought, "I probably shouldn't be doing this". But that thought was followed with 100 reasons why it would be OK to do it!

Modern law has nothing at all to to with values or morals or right & wrong. It has more to do with loopholes in the existing written moral codes(laws). An example is the view on sanity & insanity in the courts today. When is a criminal insane? I'll tell you when. All criminals are insane! Rational thinkers do not end up in court or jail. Just to wind up in court for any charge is an indication that at some point the individual was not following his own rational thought but was being influenced by some insane thinking, either his or another's!

I am not defending RR here. I am totally against the values promoted by the "get a job, save your money, middle class don't rock the boat American pro-ritilan idealists". Those ideals are designed to "keep one down" & remove the "potentially dangerous threats" from the environment of the criminally wealthy.(Old man Kennedy made his money bootlegging!)

However, I believe all people are basically good & that they know without a doubt when they are doing something that they possibly shouldn't be doing. Personal integrity is a much better quality & quantity to posess than bandwidth!

id4rox
07-09-00, 12:51 AM
Wow, this thread is awesome. It entertained me for an hour while I read all the posts. Haha! I'd say screw them and their deal, keep your uncap right now! I'm not too bright on all this law talk and all that jazz, but heck, dont take their deal unless they make it for 2 years or more! And throw in free digital TV for a few years (or cable TV if you dont like digital). I pay 47 bucks a month for 2 IPs from RR, for an average of 60KB/sec down and like REAL slow like 4KB/sec up, then another bill for our tv.

martialcomp
07-09-00, 01:17 AM
I am afraid I must stir the pot a little bit more. Customers that live in Violents area are probably experiencing slow speeds. These customers typically call technical support for assistance. After a tech determines that the customer has slow speeds, he rolls a truck to the customers house to check the lines and connection. It is possible that many people are calling in with slow speeds because Violent is using more than his share of the bandwidth on his node. The techs that take the calls do not know that Violent is on that node. So, how much does this cost the cable company to roll trucks for an issue that is being caused by 1 individual?
The techs check the lines, find no problem, refer the problem to engineering, and eventually the problem is narrowed down to 1 person...Violent. What do they do? Well, one way or another, they must get Violent off of the residential Road Runner system.

iBringPain
07-09-00, 01:51 AM
Each home connected to cable is capable of speeds up to 27 mbs so I serious doubt Violent was taking anything from his neighbors...(I'm sure some of you experts can tell us different). The people you should be worried about are the one who run servers. So what if Violent uncapped his modem, is he in your neighood? Since when has your follow man ever cared about his neighor? Cave man days? There are many more important issues to care about in your day than who or whoever is getting more bandwidth than you... Is he right? the court said "yes" Is O.J. gulity? the court said "no" we all know the answers to both questions....

martialcomp
07-09-00, 03:56 AM
I am afraid I must stir the pot yet again.
The only reason to uncap the upstream of a modem is to go crackz/warez crazy on the computer. The other reason is to run a server. I suspect that both are the case here. Road Runner has respectable upstream speed limits. Not that long ago, we had a member here that admitted that his neighbor was running a server. He said that he did not want to turn in his neighbor. But, he
admitted to slow speeds himself and was wondering if he could do anything EXCEPT turn in the neighbor. If you guys get a hold of these logs, and end up arrested and in court, do not come crying here. You will get no sympathy from me. And, I especially do not want to hear your crying about paying a fine of $15-20000 dollars for the next 5 years. I am not going to change my position on this. Getting a little extra bandwidth is not worth getting arrested, posting bail, hiring an attorney (most of us do not have a sister that will take care of our court case for free) and battling it out in court. And, of course, the inevitable disconnection of service. I know, how about the cable company accusing you of illegal activity in the use of their service and police carting your computer away. I personally do not want police and attorneys knocking on my door while I am browsing the net. Again, I say, think twice before doing something so foolish as this guy has done. If you are rich, then you can afford a business connection anyway. If you are poor like the rest of us, then you cannot afford to pay for fines and attorneys fees. I want to add one more thing, where did anyone ever get the idea that they can get 27 megabits per second? Yes the modems are capable of much higher speeds than they run. But the support systems cannot handle that. A typical subdomain for an entire city (depending on the area) is typically a T3 (45 megabits per second) max. It is routed to a regional data center that might run at OC3 (155 megabits per second) and that might feed an entire county! There are faster systems being installed in various areas of the country. But, my area still runs on exactly the example I have given you. So, before anyone says that they can get 27 megabits per second to their house (more than half the bandwidth for an entire city). I suggest they get their facts straight.


[This message has been edited by martialcomp (edited 07-09-2000).]

[This message has been edited by martialcomp (edited 07-09-2000).]

Bozzman
07-09-00, 04:55 AM
Violent don't send those logs to anyone at all..not on this BBS or anywhere man...its just not a responsible thing to do http://www.speedguide.net/ubb/rolleyes.gif

I'm glad to see you stood up to RR, but for christ sakes don't release those logs..
I mean just think of how quick that crap would spread. Sue RR, and get the money, but don't make others suffer that happen to be on a node with people that would have those codes. If you're wondering, NO, i'm not on RR I got DSL http://www.speedguide.net/ubb/biggrin.gif It just scares me to think of all the 15yr olds that read this board with RR..

mobius0
07-09-00, 05:51 AM
I have been reading this string for 3 days now and I am wondering why everyone wants what they don't have. If you really think about it this is just the begining of this technology. Things will improve with time and if you don't like your service now pay for a better one. I am not sure I believe in this big bad company theory. Sure they are not as personal as you might like but they have more than on person to deal with. You are paying them for a service and they are providing it to you. If you don't like them then change your ISP. I feel this is just the begining of this sort of thing. Next time the poor sap who tries this may not be so lucky and for what I ask you. Nothing you can see or touch or has any REAL gains. So maybe you finish a download a few seconds early. What do you really gain? Is it really worth it to go through all this when you know as well as I do that in a year or so there will be something better or yours will be upgraded. If you really think it is not enough speed just go back to you 56k modem and start using a $10.00 a month ISP and then you will appreciate what you have now. I DON'T mean to anger anyone I just wanted to put my input in and say that I advise not to give the logs to anyone If you can get somthing from RR then do it. If you sue them for breaking the law then that is Cool, but let everyone moan and groan for a year or two because when they get used to what that will give them they will start complaining again that it is not enough. Violent I like to see the little guy win but you may not be so lucky next time and you may want to consider playing nice for awhile.

jayyy
07-09-00, 09:10 AM
There's one big point here though -roadrunner and co have to cut the crap over this "100 times faster than a 56k modem" crap, espec. when they press criminal charges against anyone who alters their equip to get anywhere close to that. If they establish a cap of 400kbps, they should say so in the ads. If uncapping only results in speeds within the range stated as possible in promotional material made to sell the service, I can't feel all that bad about poor little roadrunner. They're advertising a BMW and selling an old Buick.

DIDS
07-09-00, 09:36 AM
RR advertises "Unlimited Speed" on there roadway advertiseing boards in my area. I know I sure dont get unlimited speed.

clover
07-09-00, 11:19 AM
Originally posted by mobius0:
If you really think about it this is just the begining of this technology. Things will improve with time and if you don't like your service now pay for a better one.

Not all of us can. I live on the east coast of Australia where there are 2 cable providers, and the other does not provide a service to home units, only houses. On the west coast, they don't even HAVE a cable provider!

I hate to remind you Americans, but this is the Internet, which is international, even if most americans think it's theirs http://www.speedguide.net/ubb/smile.gif

My modem happens to be the same as Violents, my ISP also advertised 100x 56K speed (NO mention of capping) and in addition, there was no mention of tampering with the capping in the contract...but then, there was no mention of the speed being capped either, at the time they gave me the contract to sign. So yes, I'm interested and I also don't believe this would violate any part of my contract.

clover

iBringPain
07-09-00, 03:46 PM
Sandman your a self centered mooron. So between you and maertialcomp "what is the capable speeds of a cable modem"? Did I get all the spelling right for you?

Violent
07-09-00, 03:58 PM
I do not run servers of any type. I do not do warez or any illegal software pirating activity. The only thing close to a server that I do run in on my own home network - if you want to call this a server - four machines thru hubs and switches to the machine with the cable modem (the one I un capped) on it. Since some of you were so diligent to point out the TOS, yes home networks are allowed, they just will not set them up for you.

The_Sandman
07-09-00, 04:05 PM
iBringpain:
Thank You! I really mean that. Now heres what you have to do, go to your doctor and have your eyes examined. Why? Well either you have poor eye sight or you are so damn stupid you can't read corcetly. martialcomp said that cable modems are capable of that speed and more. However as he said it depends on the network and other things. if your cable network has a T1 connection which some still do how do expect to reach 27Mpbs. If what you said is true then why isn't violent downloading faster than 1.2MB/s. 27Mbps is not equal to 1.2MB. Modem speeds vary there are some Homes that don't have a cable modem capable of that speed. For what you said to be correct each home would have to have at least its own T3 line and it can't be shared except for maybe between 2 users. No, your spelling was not correct! Go back to school you need it

iBringPain
07-09-00, 06:58 PM
Sandman...if this helps you keep a gun out of mouth it is okay with me...

Violent
07-09-00, 07:13 PM
Fanta : Nope,, do not run any servers what so ever.



Originally posted by fanta:
Violent, actually I was refering to file server. Maybe an FTP site or IRC Fserv? Did/Do you run any of these?

NeoGuyver
07-09-00, 08:22 PM
I have nothing in defense of myself or others who want to uncap their modems, but to mobius0: No one can really change their service right now, it's sort of a territorial thing with Cable, and if we want DSL, sure we can change it. But I'll use my area as an example. We have few people on each node since we have A hell of a lot of available bandwidth, and most everyone in the city has cable. They still don't want to up the CAP to at least 20k like we ask, it's not much to ask for, but if they only let us use the bandwidth that is available, no one will experience a reduction in speed. It's just that it's in their power, but they are stubborn. Thats just my 2¢ http://www.speedguide.net/ubb/smile.gif

I don't think 20k is too much more to ask for. Hell they have the bandwidth. And their Customer Service is CRAP! I wish OOL was in my area instead of @home... http://www.speedguide.net/ubb/frown.gif

mobius0
07-09-00, 09:08 PM
NeoGuyver

I understand that options are limited at this time and I don't mean to imply that I have a whole hell of a lot myself. But the fact is I do have the choice of DSL or Cable or move to an area where the service is offered that I want. All of which will cost money. I can't speak for your ISP but one thing is very certain If you give someone somthing and then take it away they will be more upset than if they never had it. Maybe your ISP is bad and you have no options but I am sure in time you will have plenty as this technology grows. But taking what they are not willing to give is not the answer. This is just my opinion. Like I stated in the past I had to go back to 56k for a short time and I will NEVER complain about the speeds I get with my cable unless somthing is clearly wrong with my service. I just like all the rest here would love to get as much bandwidth as possible but I am unwilling to just take it.

Just a friendly reply http://www.speedguide.net/ubb/smile.gif

chacmool
07-09-00, 09:15 PM
Sandman...spelling:

Jaxsonville...¿Is that the same Jacksonville, FL that's on the north east side of the state?

"....you are so stupid you can't read corcetly."

What the heck...I get confused between Cajun & English too.

NeoGuyver
07-09-00, 09:50 PM
Thanks, the truth is, they really did give me something, then take it back. When I got my service, I had 50k/sec uploads. They took away from me. Now I ask for not even half of that back and they shun us, even though it's NEVER in use. We have a few nodes with 3 people on them and they are still as slow as the rest of us, only 128kbps (16k/sec). As for the options of moving and switching to DSL. I am not close enough to receive DSL from my phone Co. and The closest place I can move with a higher rating I don't think is even in my state. BESIDES, why should 'I' move to get better service? It's much easier and more beneficial for EVERYNE if they complied.

I see your point, I assure you, but if you had situation, I think you would be angry because you are powerless to make them see the truth. 16k/sec can't do CRAP compared to what Cable SHOULD do anyway. Did they ever put caps on phones? (I know cable is shared, but just follow me here) If they can't handle giving us speed that they first guaranteed, then they have NO bussiness being our service providers! I know technology has to "GROW" more, but does that also mean few should have to take a step back for the rest? Each city should be dealt with on an individual basis. it shouldn't be that hard to hire a task force to look into these things, hell, they spent a **** load of money trying to make an "EXAMPLE" out of people like Violent over here. Do you think this is a good way to spend their expenses? Couldn't they have used that money to build ONE MORE NODE for some city that needs it? perhaps...

One other thing, this is mainly for @home users. Wasn't there supposed to be a plan where you could pay for more bandwidth if you wanted to? WHAT THE HECK HAPPEND TO THAT!?

freak99
07-09-00, 09:57 PM
Hmmm, did anyone think of trying to duplicate the sequence of events in order to get the logs? ie: call tech support and tell them some b.s. etc...

Is it just me or is this really obvious?
(or maybe the smart people just don't want the dumb people to know)

The_Sandman
07-09-00, 09:57 PM
iBringPain:
I don't own a gun, but if I did I'd sure keep it out of my mouth.
Thank You!

mobius0
07-09-00, 09:58 PM
NeoGuyver I understand your frustration and I sympathize with you. It sounds as if you have a really bad ISP and some very good points. I hope that everything works out for you.

Clbe
07-09-00, 10:29 PM
I was asked to check out this thread and I find it interesting. Some points...


There is a *DISTINCT* difference between kB/s and kb/s. 1 kB/s = 8.192 kb/s and 1 kb/s = .122 kB/s
RoadRunner is a DOCSIS system throughout. In a DOCSIS environment, the capping is truly done at the cable modem NOT the headend. http://www.speedguide.net/ubb/eek.gif There is a subtle point to make however. The "configuration" that contains the capping paramters does exist at the head-end and is transferred to the cable modem via tftp once the cable modem has properly ranged, registered, and is active on the tcpip network. The cable modem reads the configuration and then sets itself appropriately.
It is totally feasible to have a telnet interface to the modem's innards. I do not specifically know if the CyberSurfr's have this but I am absolutely positive that other manufacturers provide this ability in one form or another. In context of this scenario, the Moto tech needs only to know the RF interface IP or the ethernet interface IP address. If any cable modem vendor is SMART, they would restrict such capabilities to the RF interface only.
The possibility of violent capturing such a session is close to NIL... UNLESS there is a heinous flaw in the CyberSurfr architecture whereby they open the session to the ethernet and not the RF interface. Any moto folk here? Contact me so we can discuss this one.
If RR could properly configure their network from the onset, this might never have happened as they could make the "pool" of RF interface addresses a private network instead of a legit IP class network. In this situation, the moto tech would never be able to "telnet" to the modem. Only a knowledgable RR tech could do it from within their private RF network.


What Violent did is entirely FEASIBLE. I am totally curious about it though and, like everyone else, want to see the proof. I happen to work for a company that is deep into this technology so if somebody else wants me to verify what happened here, I probably can if I'm given the session, logs, and such. I would only give a "yea / nay" vote without details.

Clbe

[This message has been edited by Clbe (edited 07-09-2000).]

John
07-10-00, 12:06 AM
americans think it's theirs

Well, we started it! We maintain major aspects of it as well. Who do you think makes all the endings such as .com , .net, .co.uk ?

this is a whole 'nother subject.