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Praise be to Alla! Alla akbar!


http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051120/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq

BAGHDAD, Iraq - U.S. forces sealed off a house in the northern city of Mosul where eight suspected al-Qaida members died in a gunfight — some by their own hand to avoid capture. A U.S. official said Sunday that efforts were under way to determine if terror leader Abu Musab al-Zarqawi was among the dead.

Pray it's so!

more from the Jpost.

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite? ... 2FShowFull

I do hope it IS true!! That would be good news!

Fixing blunders by the top brass is always a good thing!!

But NBC News has learned that long before the war the Bush administration had several chances to wipe out his terrorist operation and perhaps kill Zarqawi himself — but never pulled the trigger.

Bin Laden and Zarqawi have been killed or allegedly killed, what, four or five times now?

CIA- backed operatives, just will not die..

Burke wrote:Bin Laden and Zarqawi have been killed or allegedly killed, what, four or five times now?

i hope they did kill that little spineless f**k ...

[Dr. Evil] "Well, thats a start." [/Dr. Evil]

looks like they didn't get him after all ... he must've been at Bin Laden's house ...

Oh well, we got some Al Queada punks just the same.

FunK wrote:Oh well, we got some Al Queada punks just the same.

To be replaced by 500 more...

mountainman wrote:To be replaced by 500 more...

Line em up. Bullets are cheap....

That MOFO's days are numbered....

He's a coward....

You won't get 'em from SA!!

Time to volunteer to head west! (east?)!!

mountainman wrote:You won't get 'em from SA!!

Time to volunteer to head west! (east?)!!

If by Volunteer you mean Enlist, been there done that. yeah its just the USAF but I have a wife to think about too. Quality of life was a big deciding factor, along with the job i got.

As far as going over. I may or may not be doing that in January.

RoscoPColtrane wrote:If by Volunteer you mean Enlist, been there done that. yeah its just the USAF but I have a wife to think about too. Quality of life was a big deciding factor, along with the job i got.

As far as going over. I may or may not be doing that in January.

I know you're in. (Was just messin with ya.) I'd still love to apply to ANG this coming year. However, the wife isn't too into that idea. She wants the aircraft I fly to NOT have cannons/missles/ejection seat.

mountainman wrote:I know you're in. (Was just messin with ya.) I'd still love to apply to ANG this coming year. However, the wife isn't too into that idea. She wants the aircraft I fly to NOT have cannons/missles/ejection seat.

If only my eyes weren't shot. One of these days I will have my pilots as well. Like you said tho. no cannons/missles/ejection/supersonic...

As far as applying. its definatly something you can be proud of. I guess i will always be able to look back and think i did my part, even if its just a small part.

Good luck on your decision!

I love the way they shift from Bin Laden to this guy..Used to be all they talked about was Bin-Laden and Taliban. Seems like the villian has been forgotten. As if Zarqawi would actually put himself in harms way and be in Iraq. Doubtful. Just more spin to make it seem like we need to be in Iraq.




Pie

Yeah, we should pull out, retrain our troops to carry flowers and extend the olive branch to Al Queada and other Islamic Militants.

All they understand is peace.... We just aren't talking their language with bombs and bullets.

FunK wrote:Yeah, we should pull out, retrain our troops to carry flowers and extend the olive branch to Al Queada and other Islamic Militants.

All they understand is peace.... We just aren't talking their language with bombs and bullets.

Well if you want to carry flowers thats fine..Thats not what I said. You sound exactly like the momo's you support. Trying to make everyone thats see's thru them seem like cowards and flower children. Wake up and stop being a trained seal. They didn't catch the objective (Bin Laden) so they created Saddam Husein, they catch Hussein and still no Bin Laden after 4 years, so of course they need a new villian to keep you occupied with.
Mr. Patriot, the VA is underbudgeted by over $1Bil. I guess they are good enough to fight for your cause, just not good enough to be taken care of afterwards. Seems like the coffers for rebuilding Iraq and wasting money on bombs,embezzlers and phosphorous is unlimited tho.

Pie, I'm just tryig to figure out what it is "your type" (since you want to characterize) would have done if you had to make the same decisions..

Would you have taken the fight to them or sat back and tried diplomacy.
Lord knows they don't understand diplomacy so how would you have acted? I get the feeling nothing would have happened. Take teh gut punch and wipe yourself off, downsize the military, stay at home, win the approval rating war and wait for the next attack on US soil.

Perhaps some more sanctions that the UN can impose?

If at the same time you were told that Saddam has or plans to have WMDs and has been milking the Oil for food program and may be on his way to nukes, would you have sat back or acted? You think Saddam wouldn't have given them to terrorists?

Seriously, lets get down to brass tacks here. Instead of bashing a man of action for acting, lets hear what it is you would have done. Let's not forget how Clinton and others didn't get OBL when they had the chance and blew the one good way we had to track him.

I'll even give you 4 years of hindsight to make your statements as to how you would have made decisions with the intel we had..

Even the Dems agreed as to why we went into Iraq. If you support them and not the pres, that's fine but you would have supported the decision to go.

It's one thing to want things to be different.. It's another to criticize ones actions when at the time, it seemed right by all accounts. Bush isn't the best pres ever. I never said he was. I didn't say he hasn't made mistakes but he's the one that has to make these decisions. For the most part, I believe they have been right. He knew it would be tough, he knew his approval would drop, he still made the tough calls. He knew America would lose it's resolve and determination. It's sad as hell but hey, that's America these days.

My point is, we are facing an enemy like no other we have faced. They cannot be reasoned with. There is but one thing to do to them and that is to wipe them off the earth. If you can think of a better way to do that than a war, you let me know. Maybe we can have good ole american reality show with OBL and Bush in the Octagon.. Ultimate Fighter 3.. Pay per view.. Winner take all... Nope, sorry, it takes fighting men to go to other nations and weed out and destroy these slime balls.

Pull out?? HA! Yeah, that'lll stop em in their tracks..
be nice to them? Support them? Good faith? Laughable.

FunK wrote: Seriously, lets get down to brass tacks here. Instead of bashing a man of action for acting, lets hear what it is you would have done. Let's not forget how Clinton and others didn't get OBL when they had the chance and blew the one good way we had to track him.
.

Uh huh...That one has been disproved dozens of times including the 9-11 report.

It's not that Clinton let him get away, it's that Clinton AND the USA couldn't take him.

That said...where IS bin Laden?

As far as Bush being a man of action...ok. Let's say for argument he is. Funk, would you say that that this Bush team really has it together? Really? NO WOMD...NO bin Laden..and now Al Qeada is getting larger by the day. We went from support from pretty much the whole world to a point where we now look like numbskulls. Sorry my friend but that's a pretty fair assessment.

As far as Zarqawi goes, I do wish to all get out that they HAD killed him. He's as dangerous as bin Laden as far as being able to rally more men to his way of thinking and to plan attacks.

Did you read my link at the beginning of the thread? I mean since we're on this "it's all Clinton's fault" soapbox?

I also don't think we can just up and leave......It's a quagmire and the lack of planning and oversight by this administration is staggering.

Just my personal opinion is all and not ment to stir the faithful.

They will not find al zarqawi untill they find Ibinsobinonbignobin.

They will be together

FunK wrote:Pie, I'm just tryig to figure out what it is "your type" (since you want to characterize) would have done if you had to make the same decisions..

Would you have taken the fight to them or sat back and tried diplomacy.
Lord knows they don't understand diplomacy so how would you have acted? I get the feeling nothing would have happened. Take teh gut punch and wipe yourself off, downsize the military, stay at home, win the approval rating war and wait for the next attack on US soil.

Perhaps some more sanctions that the UN can impose?

If at the same time you were told that Saddam has or plans to have WMDs and has been milking the Oil for food program and may be on his way to nukes, would you have sat back or acted? You think Saddam wouldn't have given them to terrorists?

Seriously, lets get down to brass tacks here. Instead of bashing a man of action for acting, lets hear what it is you would have done. Let's not forget how Clinton and others didn't get OBL when they had the chance and blew the one good way we had to track him.

I'll even give you 4 years of hindsight to make your statements as to how you would have made decisions with the intel we had..

Even the Dems agreed as to why we went into Iraq. If you support them and not the pres, that's fine but you would have supported the decision to go.

It's one thing to want things to be different.. It's another to criticize ones actions when at the time, it seemed right by all accounts. Bush isn't the best pres ever. I never said he was. I didn't say he hasn't made mistakes but he's the one that has to make these decisions. For the most part, I believe they have been right. He knew it would be tough, he knew his approval would drop, he still made the tough calls. He knew America would lose it's resolve and determination. It's sad as hell but hey, that's America these days.

My point is, we are facing an enemy like no other we have faced. They cannot be reasoned with. There is but one thing to do to them and that is to wipe them off the earth. If you can think of a better way to do that than a war, you let me know. Maybe we can have good ole american reality show with OBL and Bush in the Octagon.. Ultimate Fighter 3.. Pay per view.. Winner take all... Nope, sorry, it takes fighting men to go to other nations and weed out and destroy these slime balls.

Pull out?? HA! Yeah, that'lll stop em in their tracks..
be nice to them? Support them? Good faith? Laughable.

#1 : Our Goal was to get Bin-Laden. They blew that.
#2 : They told us that Iraq had the capability to send nuclear weapons to our soil (Cheney AND Condoleeza Rice both said this) This was a scare tactic.

I know that with all the spin being given to us that its been hard to focus on what our objective originally was, but that was to seek out and find the murderer and orchestrator of the 9-11 tragedy. How the **** we got into this "Bring Democracy to Iraq" bullcrap is beyond me, but we have allowed ourselves to be tricked into believing all this crap with so many stories being told to us.
I never said to be nice to them, please don't try to mince my words. I could just as easily say you are a warmongerer and enjoy the death of innocent men women and children, but I will reserve myself. It is after all not your fault but it is if you continue to support it.
They need to start fighting fire with fire. The reason why we are being easily picked off is because we are such a big target. If they cut back all the troops and instead of allowing them to be dug into permanent spaces and doing routine checks and patrols which are easily patterned , they can fight the guerrillas in the same style, hunting them down and routing them out in small patrols. They need some real specialists and not some of these inexperienced kids they are dragging over there.
The same way it is in Afghanistan. If they have no targets , they will have to look for them, which means they gotta come out of hiding or ask more questions. How friggin hard is it to plant a bomb on a street where you know they will be there at a certain time? These guys are not an entire army. Its a bunch of rag tag semi-trained insurgents, the majority of which are getting back at a lot of their former oppressors.
Anyway there won't be any convincing people that have your mindset that this whole thing is wrong anyway. You will think that 60% of americans that disagree with this war and the majority of the world population who think this is wrong, are all just a bunch of unpatriotic cowards anyway since thats the new label being offered as an excuse. Thanksgiving we can think of all those poor Kids over there fighting to free a pile of sand , while we sit home with our families, meanwhile the guy who killed or supposedly killed 3000 people back in September of 2001, is still running around complete with his dialisys machine in tow.


Pie

Downhill. Don't take me as blind homer here. I know I may come off that way but I understand that Bush hasn't been the best. Hell he comes off as really stupid sometimes when he speaks. Sometimes I shake MY head at some of the stuff I hear. As far as Clinton goes, I don't mean to make this into a Bush / Clinton thread but it's fact that we were tracking Bin Laden via his sattelite phone, we know where he was and waited too long to send in the birds.

Do you remember the USS Cole and what we did after that? I remember the Cole. I don't remember much happening... The Embassy's in Africa. Yeah, I remember them but no real action against the enemy.. Mogadishu? Yeah, we left. Nothing accomplished.

At least this time we have a goal of wiping these guys out.
Have they planned the best for contingencies? NO. I can agree there. The argument there is not enough troops, equipment, etc. I believe downsing was the previous admins goal and folks like Kerry voted against the money to equip them..

But I don't question their decision to go and I support their actions to try and do what's best. What I hate is the overwhelming stupidity I hear everyday on the news in regards to this kind of stuff. It's like this big bandwagon and it just gets bigger everyday.. Supporting Bush in any way shape or form is seen as bad. I don't see it that way. He's trying to do something that's damn near impossible. I guess that it comes with taking action. If you never do anything, you can't be judged for it.

I just don't see how Americans supported this action and the president but now, he can't catch a break. Are we that fickle? Apparently we are. Which boils down to resolve. We lost it in Vietnam and the terrorist believe we will lose it again. I fear they might be right.

A president can get support when he's caught lying under oath about having his penis in an interns mouth. His approval can go up even when doing nothing to protect us against these terrorists. Another pres can take the fight to them, kill a bunch and promise to not let up but he is the bad guy.

I guess it has more to do with American Society. This honestly is the only thing I can attribute it to. Society says it's OK for elected officials to lie and have affairs but damnit when one stands up to an enemy that attacked us and fights, the ways in which he does it are questioned to no end. So what sways americans into this kind of thinking.. Media or lack of principles is really all I can think of. Seems this Pres has had the carpet snatched from under him on several occasions by his supporters and his supporters-turned-detractors.

That's not my style. I was raised better than that. I'll leave it at that. The lack of principles is partly what has half the Muslim world pissed at us and it's also the reason noone can support the pres. No spine in America anymore.

Easy to jump on with what's popular.... Much harder to stand up for whats right.

Funk, nice post. About lying under oath...Clinton was a fool to have had any kind of fodder to give the right wing... Even at that, when Star finally got him on the witness stand, I challenge anyone reading this to show me one single question about Whitewater, Clinton was asked. He wasn't and that was all Star was appointed to do. To investigate the issue. (Something his predecessor figured out there wasn't any to, and Star also figure out by 96).

I can remember the outcry by right wing pundits when Clinton fired missiles into Afganastan..Do you? The cry was he was doing this to draw attention away from the Lewinsky affair. It was pretty loud, no? I can also remember that there wasn't a day that went by about some kind of manufactured Clinton scandal going on in the news.

Now compare this to this sitting President. He didn't finish his National Guard service after the country spent a ton of money training him. This was a job his Dad got him to get him out of harms way in Viet Nam.

He's screwed up just about any business venture he's been in. At the helm of this great nation? He (To be fair it's not just Bush but his whole team..) spent the first nine months working on corporate cronyism. That part has NEVER ended....

Back to the bombings. It wasn't until the Cole bombings that intelligence knew for sure that bin Laden was involved. He had been suspected but not fingered yet. Hind sight no? Clinton issued a directive to kill him. That directive stands to this day.

As to spine in America? Dunno, I'd have to disagee with that. I think that if this President had really stayed focused on bin Laden, you'd see a ton of flag waving. As it stands right now, personally I think that your perception may be because that part of the country just doesn't believe the President was honest with us about the reasons for going to war in Iraq.

I do get a kick out of that word "spine" though. Cheney just used it to attack another congressman about his tounge lashing the President. Funny coming out of Cheney's mouth. A man that was too busy to serve during Viet Nam. His words.


Again, don't get me wrong here. We're in Iraq and imho we just can't leave without really giving the wrong impression to the terrorists.

Funk, you're da man!

FunK wrote:Downhill. Don't take me as blind homer here. I know I may come off that way but I understand that Bush hasn't been the best. Hell he comes off as really stupid sometimes when he speaks. Sometimes I shake MY head at some of the stuff I hear. As far as Clinton goes, I don't mean to make this into a Bush / Clinton thread but it's fact that we were tracking Bin Laden via his sattelite phone, we know where he was and waited too long to send in the birds.

Takes a minimum of 45 mins to launch a tomahawk from a sub once the op order is issued. The problem has always been that he doesn't stay on the phone for 45 minutes, and he never uses the same phone twice. Unless your willing to blanket an area the size of half-a-state with nuclear weapons,, or unless there's a SEAL team hanging out at the local 7-11, 45 minutes is just too long to have a shot at anyone who always moves after using telecomms devices.

Do you remember the USS Cole and what we did after that? I remember the Cole. I don't remember much happening... The Embassy's in Africa. Yeah, I remember them but no real action against the enemy.. Mogadishu? Yeah, we left. Nothing accomplished.

Actually, I do remember the Cole. Apparently you don't though.
Clinton had less than 30 days after the bombers of the Cole were identified before he left office. Bush on the other hand had 234 days to do something about the Cole.. He responded by giving the Taliban $43 million dollars.

Bush ended Clinton executive order stopping all aid and trade to the Taliban for harboring bin Laden.

Mogadishu was a Bush 1 Operation. It was already a goat-**** by the time Clinton inherited it. Clinton authorized Bin Ladens killing after the embassy bombings and armed the CIA Predator drones over the objection of the Air Force. Bush stopped the Predators tracking OBL.

At least this time we have a goal of wiping these guys out.
Have they planned the best for contingencies? NO. I can agree there. The argument there is not enough troops, equipment, etc. I believe downsing was the previous admins goal and folks like Kerry voted against the money to equip them..

Cheney cut the Defense budget when he was Sec Def. He wanted to cut the Apache program altogether. He cut 25% of the army and reduced over all manning from 2.2 million to 1.6 million.

But I don't question their decision to go and I support their actions to try and do what's best. What I hate is the overwhelming stupidity I hear everyday on the news in regards to this kind of stuff. It's like this big bandwagon and it just gets bigger everyday.. Supporting Bush in any way shape or form is seen as bad. I don't see it that way. He's trying to do something that's damn near impossible. I guess that it comes with taking action. If you never do anything, you can't be judged for it.

And for years, daring to question ANYTHING the administration did or said was seen as bad. "Why do you hate America?" "Why do you love the terrorists?" "Why do you hate freedom?" and so on. The right created this lack of goodwill. Now they get to taste their own medicine. With luck, they'll learn to act like grownups. I wouldn't hold my breath though.

I just don't see how Americans supported this action and the president but now, he can't catch a break. Are we that fickle? Apparently we are. Which boils down to resolve. We lost it in Vietnam and the terrorist believe we will lose it again. I fear they might be right.

Do you have any idea what we were actually doing in Vietnam? Leave aside the Ramboesque "Domino theory" crap. Do you have any idea what we were actually doing there. Here's a clue. We were the people supporting the Saddam like regime that was the South Vietnamese gov't.

A president can get support when he's caught lying under oath about having his penis in an interns mouth. His approval can go up even when doing nothing to protect us against these terrorists. Another pres can take the fight to them, kill a bunch and promise to not let up but he is the bad guy.

You know, this is hooey. Bush's ratings are in the dumper because his policies both foreign and domestic are catching up with him. Listenign only to what you want to hear and charging ahead is not "Bold Leadership". It's thrashing around like a bull in a china shop. Pointless and destructive.

Iraq.. more terrorists today, or in 2000? Today.
US.. less prepared for natural disasters today, or in 2000. Today.
Iraq.. more violence today, or in 2000? Today.
US.. more national debt today, or in 2000? Today.

Is it starting to sink in? Unless you are fabulously wealthy, your actual income has gone down under this President. American casualties under Bush stand at 15568 WIA and 2097 KIA. To get a man who never had the weapons and never was ANY threat to this country.

I guess it has more to do with American Society. This honestly is the only thing I can attribute it to. Society says it's OK for elected officials to lie and have affairs but damnit when one stands up to an enemy that attacked us and fights, the ways in which he does it are questioned to no end. So what sways americans into this kind of thinking.. Media or lack of principles is really all I can think of. Seems this Pres has had the carpet snatched from under him on several occasions by his supporters and his supporters-turned-detractors.

It's called learning. Smart people learn from their mistakes.

That's not my style. I was raised better than that. I'll leave it at that. The lack of principles is partly what has half the Muslim world pissed at us and it's also the reason noone can support the pres. No spine in America anymore.

In other words, you by-god REFUSE to learn from your mistakes. You may think this makes you loyal. To most of the rest of us, it makes you look like one of the characters in Dumb and Dumber.

Easy to jump on with what's popular.... Much harder to stand up for whats right.

You're 100% correct. So let's hear YOU stand up and call for the firing of EVERY SINGLE ADMINISTRATION PERSON INVOLVED IN LEAKING THE NAME OF A CIA COVERT OPERATIVE!!

Well?

Time to stand up. If it's not too hard for you.

Regards,
-Bouncer-

whew