Ken wrote:If that wasn't true, our debt to income ratio wouldn't be were it is, now would it... Look at what has happened to the housing market. Blame Bush because people don't read and understand contracts and what ARM and balloons are? Over extend themselves with out giving it a second thought? The amount Americans save has been dropping for many years. Way before Bush... I know that you would like to blame him, but the facts show that we have been living way above our means for many years, and it's finally catching up to us...
Our society is vastly living and dependent on credit. Much different than "the good ole days" of old.
Of course, your parents standard of living was far different than yours, no? I am sure that they enjoyed all of the luxuries that were available then, right? No sacrifices, they bought whatever they wanted, right?
Sure they sacrificed when needed. So do I and most people I know.
My parents? My dad died young but he had pretty much everything everyone else did, growing up. He started working in my grandfathers store when he was 10 for nothing. He worked after school and weekends on the premise that my grandfather would put him or at least help put him through collage. When he graduated high school, well, lets just say that didn't happen so he went into the Army during the Koran conflict. This was when the G.I. Bill actually MEANT something. Remember that one? The one that's been pretty much watered down from Reagan to the current admin?
My Mom? She did fine considering she had to raise four kids on her own so Ken..I know where your headed but for my parents and even my stepdad, they pretty much had all the material things they wanted fairly early in life and even had some money to play around.
Medical wasn't near as expensive nor was housing vs what people were making at the time. Gas was pretty cheap too, even considering what wages were at the time.
Let's see..I was making a buck twenty five in 1970 and gas was 30 cents. Minimum wage is what now? $5.85 and a gallon of gas is what? For most people, over 4 bucks a gallon.
As to blaming Bush for the mess? Who brought him into the conversation? IMHO, it depends on what you're talking about. The national debt? He had something to do with it but so did his Dad and Reagan. Supply side economics is a huge failure.
As to the housing crunch? Blame Phil Grame. It was his bill that loosened up the purse strings that led to some of the shenanigans in the housing market and also the Enron scandal as well as the part of the reason for the future markets in oil going nuts. His answer? "People whine to much about the economy." As his wife was one of the auditors for Enron and made a killing with them.
A more unregulated banking is also to blame. Would you loan a thousand bucks to someone you know is probably irresponsible? Banks do it all the time. They love to issue credit to those they know can barely pay a minimum payment. They like it even better if you miss a few. It certianly wasn't like that when I was growing up. In fact I had a hell of a time even getting a credit card I used for traveling only, despite never missing a car payment, a house payment, a rent payment, utility payment etc. etc. They flat get away with being hugely irresponsible.
I wasn't comparing universal healthcare to communism. Pure communism is basically everyone earning and having the same thing, no separation of classes. You get a potato, I get a potato... This country was build on free enterprise. You work hard, sacrifice, save and you can get somewhere. You screw off, be irresponsible, whatever, no problem, except realize that you "chose" that...
Actually you did but now that you've explained yourself, yes that's exactly what communism is in a nutshell.
The difference now is if we don't have what we want soon enough, we leverage credit until we have no more, then holler for help. I suppose Bush is the reason that bankruptcies had risen so high. Oh wait, most of that was before him. Yeah, John, you are right, stating that Americans live above their means is bull doody, until you open your eyes...
Some do and I said that. I don't and never have. Do you? In fact I know few who do although I do know it's true. Lots did before the great depression, during the 60's I knew a few people who did, same as the 70's and the 80's and the 90's.
Sorry John, I don't listen to anyones political opinion BS on the radio or tv. IMHO, it is a useless waste of time that I can't spare.
That wasn't pointed exatly at you my friend but the truth is, a good many Americans do and imho, some of those aren't exactly noted for being a very reliable source for info.
Gentlemen,
The point that I am trying to make is
BEFORE we make yet
another mistake and give people something that
we can't take back,
we must correct the existing programs that are
ramped with abuse now.
Evan, as you stated the system needs an overhaul and that must be done
first. Throwing money at a problem does not solve it... Yes, people suffer. We all have, as did our ancestors, but for the long term good of all… Unfortunate, yet a fact of life, here, there, everywhere…
It will not just be the same typical good for nothing leeches on society that will abuse, as we will be teaching a whole different class of people to expect and rely upon help…
Putting this on a world scale is merely to show you guys that we CHOOSE who we want to help. Is that point understood? We CHOOSE who WE want to HELP. Not just me,
each one of you, whether you realize it or not. That is our right as Americans because we live in a free country. You CHOOSE to want to help Americans. I have no problem with that, I do it daily, however don't force it down my throat AND MAKE ME PAY for it. I CHOOSE who I want to help and let me add that I help many more than most. I can't stand the ramped abuse that our country has allowed to happen and continues to allow, and I most certainly do not want to increase it. Yes, we have turned our heads and carried on with our little worlds while more and more people become more and more dependant on others...
Some of us get the opportunity to go to universities and become doctors, etc., some of us get jobs, master our trades and start our own businesses and some of us choose to have the security of a 40 hour per week job with benefits, some of us choose to screw off and can’t get a job in the private sector. These are choices and options that we make.
How can you be jealous of someone else because they risked everything they had to try and give themselves a better future? We were worried to death that we would lose everything while the people that complain were getting their weekly paycheck. This is America and you truly do control your future. Lack of motivation, lazy, wanting job security are not excuses, they are choices… Some of us choose to exceed, others are content, others merely complain and blame everyone else…
I am going to tell you the following, not for sympathy, pity, or whatever. I am going to try to get you to understand a valid point and often we can only learn from what we can relate to, so here goes...
I have lived a hard life, poor family, no dad, my mom died 12 days before my 16th birthday, my older sister had to care for my younger sister and my brother was lost in alcohol. I had no help. If I wanted to eat, I had to work. I had to choose between food, electricity, water, transportation, healthcare, etc., constantly. I could not have them all at once. It sucked to be me, but I survived, dependant upon myself. My brother would work everyday and waste his money in the bars on Friday & Saturday night so he had no money to eat lunch come Monday. So, me being who I am, I did with-out and gave him my lunch money so that he could eat and finally I learned a lesson that you guys can’t seem to understand.
Many times, NOT helping someone is actually HELPING someone. The reason for telling this is so maybe you can see the point. As long as I helped him, it did nothing positive for him as he was dependant on me and grew more dependant on me. I suffered and he abused. Get the picture?
We, as humans, take things for granted. Finally, after a year or so, I understood that not helping forces people to help themselves. It hurt me to no end, and with every bite of lunch that I chewed, I cried inside because I knew that my brother had no lunch. However, I also knew that it was due to his lack of responsibility for himself… His fault, his lack of responsibility. He wasn’t trying to intentionally hurt me, I am not sure that he even thought about the burden that he was putting on me, however, that is not the point. People often never stop to think that SOMEONE must pay for EVERYTHING. Nothing is free…
Responsibility is just that, your responsibility. Our society has become so enthralled with entertaining ourselves, we have forgotten how much suffering that our ancestors sustained for us.
Some of us live in larger cities where the greater populations live and the lack of responsibility is more prominent. Hell, just open your eyes, it's not hard to see anywhere really, it's just that the largest concentrations of people live where? In the larger cities.
Sure, not everyone abuses the system, however, the % of abuse is unreal. Abusing the system includes welfare, insurance fraud, unemployment fraud, worker comp fraud, frivolous lawsuits, etc. It branches off into many more categories, but I believe that you guys get the picture…
Total the estimated numbers of all those, and I am sure that I have left some out, and you will get my point. We have helped to corrupt our people en masse. Constantly looking for ways to get something for nothing…
We constantly try to justify our mistakes and find someone to blame, instead of trying to learn from them. It is not hard to see this, if you pay attention. “I did that because…” never thinking “What did I do wrong? What can I do to correct it? What can I do to prevent it?” No, it is far easier to patronize ourselves and cast the blame to someone else.
What happens when justifying becomes a habit? You gain the ability to lie to yourself… Justification becomes so far fetched to the people around you, but no one wants to waste time arguing with you for no point, it is a waste of time, so they patronize you. You believe what you choose to believe and become totally non-receptive to the facts, logic, others point of view. Only yours matters, everyone else is wrong. Congratulations! You can lie to yourself and believe it now! Incredible, you say? Open your eyes and pay attention as it is not hard to see…
Jeremy, no apology was needed as I totally understand. There are always exceptions. And always will be.
John, with all due respect, at least your grandfather had a store, many of us started with nothing…
Quite honestly, I can’t say that gas is a necessity for everyone either, especially in the cities. Sure, it is great to be able to jump in your car, that you must pay for and pay insurance on and upkeep and gas, and go where you want to go, however, for many, public transportation is much more economical, environmental friendly, etc. Inconvenience! How dare someone insinuate that I should ride the bus. I am much too good for that. Oh my, really, who says? Again, if you can afford a car, fine. Don’t get public help and expect to be able to be a normal member of society having luxuries... Necessities and luxuries differ. Just like driving is a privilege… (Your states Drivers Handbook should clearly state that. People seem to forget it though.) If you can’t help yourself, if you can’t support yourself, help is there, however, if you rely upon that help, understand that it comes with a price. Nothing is free… Someone must pay for everything. What gives one the right to expect that?
And again, the effects of Presidents usually take many years to realize… In your opinion, the Republicans are the root of all evil, in truth, they are ALL politicians are evil, some get caught, others don’t… I have said many times that there must be a balance of the parties. I don’t agree with spending, and that is a basis of the Democrats. To spend, you must have…
I’m sorry, however, realistically, I can blame no one except the individuals for the housing failures. Again, lack of responsibility…
Just because a bank will loan you money does not by any means, mean that you should take it, does it? Who signed on the lines? How is that not the individuals fault and a great lack of responsibility? Please explain that, as I really want to know how you can blame that on anyone except the person that accepted the loan. Did someone have a gun to their head?
Oh wait, I qualify for a loan to get a Corvette! I’m buying a vette!!!!! OH, ch|t! The bank didn’t tell me the cost of insurance, so it’s the bank’s fault? What about maintenance and upkeep? What about gas?
I qualify for a house! Yes! Forget the only way that I can qualify for my dream house is with a loan that I don’t understand. One that has the potential to ruin me… I can get the house!!!!! I could get a normal loan for a more moderate house, but I want it all and I can get it, the bank says so!!!
That damn bank screwed me! Sorry, John, it’s not the banks fault, it is the individuals fault…
The point is that people do not look out for themselves. They don’t plan for the future, budget, depend upon themselves. They screw up and blame someone. That is why the same mistakes are continued to be made, we just don’t learn. We see things the way that we choose to see them. Poor, poor, pitiful me!...
And, thank you, John, for you enunciated the point that I have been trying to make. People must take responsibility upon themselves and not expect everyone else to pay for their mistakes… Lack of thought or planning, ignorance is not an excuse…
I have made my points, and as always, leave it to all. Whether one agrees or not is irrelevant as we choose to believe what we choose to believe…
I luv you guys! Hugs and kisses!
As long as you make AN EFFORT to pay every month, no detriment to your credit, no financial strain on yourself... 
. I do appreciate your passion.